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Opinions needed

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
Messages
231
I have a 76 with a 302, C4, Dana 20, 3.55 gears in the rear, and 32" tires. I just rebuilt my transmission and resealed the Dana 20(no new bearings, just seals) and it does great at low speeds, it shifts from 1 to 2 at about 2500 rpms, shifts from 2 to 3 at about 2500 rpms, but when I am at 55mph(checked with phone app) I am running at about 3200 rpms, at 60mph I am running at about 3400 rpms. I have plugged all the numbers into an online calculator and the rpms at these speeds with my setup shouldn't be any where near this high. What is the most likely problem?
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,949
Go to the tech section, axle, check gear ratio. First thought is the gearing has been changed sometime in the past.

Second thought, the tach is not accurate. Seen many tachs that are off. Sometimes it is as simple as the 4-6-8 cylinder selector switch is in the wrong place.

Also, the C4 does not have a lockup convertor. You will get a few hundred more RPM due to convertor slippage than what the math says you will be getting.

The advertised tire size also doesn't match the actual rolling size.

Speedometer is not accurate (but you checked with phone so that shouldn't be it)

Any of the above, including combinations of multiple of the above, is possible.
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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231
When I first got the Bronco I jacked the rear up and put it in neutral and spun one tire one full revolution and the drive shaft rotated right at 3 and a half times. The tach could definitely be off, I just borrowed it from a friend and temporarily installed it but I did it because I felt like the engine was running at too high rpms at highway speeds. I will measure the tires and see what their actual diameter is. So, since the C4 does not have a lockup converter, do you feel like those rpms are ok? Am I shortening the life of any of the components running with that high of rpms?
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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Just measured the tires and they are actually only 30.5" tall.
 

DirtDonk

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Nov 3, 2003
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With 30.5" tall tires and 3.50 gears, at 60mph your engine should be turning roughly 2500rpm (adding 200-300 for the C4). Even with 4.11's your engine speed would be only 3000-ish rpm at the same 60mph.
Now, substitute 4.56's and you have your 3400 rpm pretty easily.

You should check the tach with some other method. Not sure what that would be, but the old school hand-held diagnostic tools with a tachometer (like a "Dwell-Tach" meter) might be an inexpensive and quick way to tell. Maybe someone you know has a tachometer you can try?

I would normally suggest you check to be sure you're not in 4-wheel LOW with the transfer case, especially after working on it. But if that were the case you'd be at much higher rpm than you are indicating.

Something else is strange here though, which points to a question about the tach again. Or gearing...
That's the comments about 2500rpm shifts. No Bronco I've ever seen that was running a stock C4 could get anywhere near 2500 rpm between the first and second gears except when accelerating very heavily. Was that rpm reading taken with a normal pedal setting? Or were you pushing it harder?
All the Broncos I've ever driven in with autos shifted super fast out of first. Going into second at often less than 10mph which I would suspect is much less than 2500 rpm.
The 2-3 shift can be much higher, but the 1-2 shift is usually super short.

Another thing to do, if it hasn't been done already, is change your front differential oil. This way you can pull the cover off and count the teeth on the gears while you wait for all the lube to drain out.
Gives you an excuse to check the insides for rust and deterioration, as well as adding a new gasket to the cover.
It only gives you the front of course, but that's good to know too, to be sure that they're matched front-to-rear.
If it's already been done to the front however, but not the rear, then now's your chance to clean out the rear and count the teeth.

Of course, you can jack up the rear and turn the wheels again, verifying what you found before. But know that if you jack up both wheels then your numbers can be very skewed if you have an open diff.
Is yours open? Or is it a limited-slip or locker perhaps?

Good luck. Very interested to hear what you find out.

Paul
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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First, thanks to both of you for trying to help me out. I have a limited slip in the rear. One thing I didn't mention is that if I jack up the front (one side at a time) and spin the tire, I hear a rubbing noise on about a 1/3 of the turn. I don't see anything that is touching and wonder if the caliper is rubbing the rotor at some point and if it is, is this enough to cause such high rpms?
 

DirtDonk

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No. If you can still spin it by hand it's not creating enough friction to effect the engine.
And even if it was, you'd bog down long before adding 1,000 more rpm to your engine-vs-road speed. Probably smell burning metal too!

The rubbing should be checked, but things that can rub are:
1. Rotor to pad with even a tiny amount of runout.
2. Dry wheel bearings? Not likely, but anything is possible as we've seen many times.
3. Axle U-joint rubbing on something behind the knuckle.
4. Wheel on a dust shield.
5. If drum brakes, easily a shoe rubbing on the drum.
6. Something in the locking hub mechanism. What type of lockouts are you running?
7. Probably 3 or 4 other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Nothing for it but to dig into it to find out what it is. Too man possibilities for us to diagnose quickly. But you can get your ear down there to hear better where it might be coming from. Maybe even take the wheel off to be sure, and check the hub to be sure.

Paul
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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Ok, didn't mean to muddy the water. I need to focus on the high rpms first. I checked the oil in the rear end and I think it is low. I get oil on my finger when I stick it in but I don't feel like I'm actually sticking my finger down in oil, may be just getting residual oil on my finger, so I am going to add some. Could low oil in the rear cause enough resistance to raise the rpms?
 

triracer67

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Nov 29, 2010
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I have C4 and 4.56 gears, I would turn 3200 at 55 mph with 32” tires.
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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Am I not accurate in that 3.5 revolutions of the driveshaft after one complete rotation of the tire equals 3.55 gears?
 

Broncobowsher

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Jun 4, 2002
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Borrowed tach, I'm going to guess it is set to 6-cylinder. That would put the indicated RPM right in line with what is observed.

The rigid cooling fans we use do make the engine sound like it is really racing when it is at a happy speed.
 

DirtDonk

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Ok, didn't mean to muddy the water. I need to focus on the high rpms first.

Not at all. Definitely was a legitimate question.
Turned out to not be a thing, but always worth asking. (ok, "almost" always worth asking! ;);D)

Could low oil in the rear cause enough resistance to raise the rpms?

Nope, but one way to tell is how well it rolls.
If you put it in neutral and coast, does it stop immediately? When you take off from a stop, do you have to really push the gas pedal down? Does the engine feel under-powered (for an old school engine that is) at all?
The higher revving trans before shifting could indicate a higher load, but you'd feel it in those other aspects. If it won't coast down your driveway, you might be on to something.
Heck, even a parking brake can be left on! But here again you'd smell the culprit pretty quickly.

But a big extra resistance is not generally from low oil levels. Not until the gears are ready to melt down or freeze up.
Inside the differential is a physical connection. The only break in that hard connection between the engine and rear wheels is inside the transmission itself.

If the trans and/or torque converter are failing/slipping, you could get higher rpm levels.
The shifting points do seem high for a Bronco C4 though, as mentioned. So maybe there is something going on inside. But before major repairs are warranted it's time for some confirmations such as you are going to try with the tachometer.

Am I not accurate in that 3.5 revolutions of the driveshaft after one complete rotation of the tire equals 3.55 gears?

You are correct. Though I believe the Ford 9" differential ratio is 3.50 instead of 3.55. That's why I asked about the open vs limited-slip diff though. An open can skew the readings under certain circumstances. I've seen them halve the number, so that a 4.11 was actually only turning 2 times on the driveshaft.
But all that is neither here nor there due to the miniscule difference that .05 : 1 ratio change would make in the engine speed. And to you having a limited-slip where both wheels would turn in the same direction if they were both off the ground. Giving you the full reading.
And since 3.50 is the most common ratio found in Broncos (it was the stock ratio for V8 equipped Broncos) it's probably correct.

So we know the speed test is accurate because you used a GPS app. Probably have dogged other cars with accurate speedos too?
We know the tire size from your measurements.
We know from the experience of many, and the many questions that arise from the perception of high rpms that the "sound" of the engines makes you think it's really revving up.
We don't know if the tach is accurate yet, even though it pretty much coincides with your feelings on engine speed.
We probably know the gear ratio, assuming your test was accurate.

Which leaves only the transfer case being in a lower range, and the transmission slipping.
But the t-case being in low would result in the engine probably pushing redline at 50mph!
Leaving only the transmission if all else is correct.

And that's spelling out "expensive fix" right now, so for peace of mind, verify the tachometer readings somehow, and maybe still pull the front cover off of the front diff to count the teeth.

Make sense so far?

Paul
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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231
I'm with you Paul, so lets talk about the transmission. Like I said, I just rebuilt it and everything went great. I added a B&M deep pan and a flexible Lokar dipstick. One thing that has bothered me is that everything that I have read says that it should take at least 12 quarts of fluid to fill it back up after a rebuild and I only got 10 and quarter quarts in it before the dipstick was reading full (this was checked while it was warm and idling). Could it be that the dipstick isn't reading correctly and I am low in fluid? Could that cause my rpm issue? If my dipstick isn't correct, how do I know how much to put in and adjust the length of my dipstick to?
 

Broncobowsher

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Jun 4, 2002
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The Lokar dipstick, when you attached it to the pan did you put the elbow pointing "up" or did you angle it? If it is angled you are 'pouring" the oil up the tube and stick, it will read higher or read full when not as full.

And no, this won't cause a steady state high RPM.
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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231
I am not at home to look at the dipstick right now but I know for sure it is pointed up. At least mostly up, maybe a slight angle, but not enough that the fluid wouldn't be going down the tube.
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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I had the torque converter rebuilt to factory specs by PTC in Muscle Shoals, AL. They are supposedly among the best in the business so I have no reason to doubt their work but could the rpm issue be caused by an improper torque converter?
 

DirtDonk

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What about the pump pickup inside the pan? With a deeper pan, are you not supposed to space the filter/pickup/whatever it's called down towards the bottom of the pan, basically as if it was in a stock pan?

I would think that low fluid could cause the higher rpm before shifting, but agree with Broncobowsher that it should not cause your high-rpm cruise discrepancy.

Paul
 
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Dyehard

Dyehard

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Feb 17, 2010
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231
Yes the pan comes with an extended pick up tube/filter and it is installed.
 

Broncobowsher

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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,949
You would need a really loose convertor to add 1000 RPM to the cruising speed. Something like a 5000 RPM stall convertor. That isn't your problem

When the convertor was rebuilt, they probably put a quart or two of oil in it so you couldn't dry start it and hurt the convertor. Thus the couple quarts shy when it was filled.
 
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