Steering advice needed (scary slop in steering)

[Sabas]

My buddy seemed to have the same issue. I had him check the nut on top of the ball joint. He tightened it down, issue went away.
Sabas

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

So I went trough the bronco at my mechanics shop. Checked everything again for any slope in the ball joits, tie rods all the steering components, gear box, shaft, and everything is tight! I ordered some new C bushings from Wild Horses and will be putting them on in the next week or so. I’m hoping that’s my problem. Cause if the the C bushings are worn that could cause the axle to roll making the tie rods shift side to side causing the radical steering.. but looking at the C bushings on the bronco now,they look good from the outside and don’t seem to have any play when trying to get them to move. Wish me luck.

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Couple things. The steering stabilizer was moved because it wasn’t allowing the full steering movement to the right. But looking at every single bronco I’ve seen no one ever moves the stabilizer like that. I’ll prolly put it back stock when I get it back (just don’t tell my mechanic) lol once c bushings are installed I’ll get it aligned again and will post the numbers.

Death wobble.. they way you described death wobble really doesn’t sound like what I have. From what I remember the steering wheel was just loose not pulling all over. It only pulls at first and then just bam it’s loose and heading off the road then bam heading in the other lane. Not a good feeling lol

 

[Pa PITT]

OK I'VE HAD ABOUT 3 DIFFERENT Vehicles with death wobble. Now Death wobble it's like YOUR DRIVING down the road. & YOU HAVE NO CONTROL. your front tires are out of control .. VIBRATING OUT OF CONTROL. VIBRATING is a bad word but they''tires'' are bouncing from left to right & back left.
YOU HAVE NO CONTROL WITH THE STEERING WHEEL IN YOUR HANDS.
.............
..... Now Pa Pitt say. Your front tires need to be turned in more in the front toe in . Keep pinching them in from 1/4 to even 1/2 inch. A half inch will really wear your tires fast .BUT A FRONT TOE IN WILL PINCH YOUR Tires in & at some point it'll stop your death wobble ..
...........................................................
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Now you may not have death wobble .. & UP front I'M GOING TO SAY DISREGARD This answer & question.. But I'm wondering ..IF ... BY WHAT I'VE READ on your description .. It really sound like your shaft from the STEERING WHEEL DOWN . Is at some point slipping onto the shaft going into the steering box. SOME TIME HOLDING & SOMETIMES SLIPPING .. OR SPINNING ON THE SHAFT.
YOURS just doesn't sound correct .
.....................................
..... Keep talking we'll figures it out.
I'm Kind of left field most of the time. But most if the time these other guys are more center Field than I am.. But we've got some really great techs on here so stay hooked. We'll keep reading ..

 

[Skiddy]

But I'm wondering ..IF ... BY WHAT I'VE READ on your description .. It really sound like your shaft from the STEERING WHEEL DOWN . Is at some point slipping onto the shaft going into the steering box. SOME TIME HOLDING & SOMETIMES SLIPPING .. OR SPINNING ON THE SHAFT.

had rag joint broke once that did that, sometimes it wouldn't slip and then it wouldn't. took a little while to find it. looking at it didn't look bad but with pressure on it spin to the pins

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Really appreciate all the help!! I will find the problem at some point lol.. so is there anything that could be slipping from the rag joint up to the steering wheel? Cause as I said before it’s got a new rag joint that came with the $300 shaft that I bought with the borgeson steering box.. the first steering box I got from them was faulty so got a replacement. I’m gonna go look at the bronco tomorrow again and go through all of it one more time.

Another thing that happened in changing all the front end parts was we had to cut the trac bar and the drag link to straighten it all.. is that normal?

So far I got new tie rods new drag link new steering box new steering shaft new trac bar bushings... ball joints are tight , rear end is tight.. except the leaf springs do squeak cause the plastic spacers are worn out..

Over all the geometry of the front end looks good.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, how about more front end pics and the alignment #s. Show the pitman arm with the steering wheel centered and the relationship of the trac bar and drag link and the custom work done to them.
What C bushings are you going to try?
I can't imagine the C bushings are loose, but they may not be the best ones or they may be installed incorrectly.
Is there any way you could try a different set of tires from another Ford truck?
My numbers are: Left caster 3.9, Right caster 3.4. Left camber 1.9, Right camber .8, toe in 1.5 degrees each side. I can drive 65 MPH all day and the ride is steady and predictable. Good luck

 

[DirtDonk]

So I went trough the bronco at my mechanics shop. Checked everything again for any slope in the ball joints, tie rods all the steering components, gear box, shaft, and everything is tight!

But how did you check? There is no hand-work strong enough to test those things in the air with the precision needed for a Bronco.
Yes, you can check ball joints and wheel bearings that way and get good results, but trackbars and tie-rods? Not so much...
Way too many very tiny things that can add up to make a Bronco steer weird.

I ordered some new C bushings from Wild Horses and will be putting them on in the next week or so.
I’m hoping that’s my problem.

Thank you very muchly. But they alone will not be the cause of your problem. Can't hurt to try, and new ones can help especially if the old ones are in wrong. But what you're describing is much more than C-bushings. Normally anyway...

Cause if the the C bushings are worn that could cause the axle to roll making the tie rods shift side to side causing the radical steering..

Axle roll? Just how is this going on? Got pictures, or better yet, video you can post up on YouTube so we can see what's going on?
It certainly could cause trouble like you say. But wondering where it's actually coming from.

...but looking at the C bushings on the bronco now,they look good from the outside and don’t seem to have any play when trying to get them to move. Wish me luck.

C-bushings would be hard to make move without using the steering input test while the rig is on the ground.
Even the old stock rubber ones that were worn out would still be tight and squeezed in good.
You said they looked good, but not if they look like old rubber or newer poly. I get the impression they're polyurethane aftermarket already, but pics would be worth a couple of thousand words at this point.

Couple things. The steering stabilizer was moved because it wasn’t allowing the full steering movement to the right. But looking at every single bronco I’ve seen no one ever moves the stabilizer like that. I’ll prolly put it back stock when I get it back (just don’t tell my mechanic) lol

I hear 'ya. But for now just remove it completely as it's possibly causing some monkey motion already. Just leave it off for testing. Many of us never use one at all.

once c bushings are installed I’ll get it aligned again and will post the numbers.

Great. Looking forward to seeing all the numbers.
Either ask them for a full printout or get a screen shot with your phone. We like to see all the numbers even when the tech says "you don't need them because you can't adjust those parameters" which is a common mistake the techs make these days.

Death wobble.. they way you described death wobble really doesn’t sound like what I have. From what I remember the steering wheel was just loose not pulling all over. It only pulls at first and then just bam it’s loose and heading off the road then bam heading in the other lane. Not a good feeling lol

I can imagine! But yes, does not sound like traditional Death Wobble which is a different beast altogether.

so is there anything that could be slipping from the rag joint up to the steering wheel? Cause as I said before it’s got a new rag joint that came with the $300 shaft that I bought with the borgeson steering box..

Not that I can think of. Other than the wheel coming loose! It's a solid shaft between the rag joint at the bottom splines and the steering wheel at the upper splines.
But is it a stock wheel, or aftermarket?

And for the new lower shaft, did you use Locktite when you installed it? You must, as those set-screws can and will come loose.
Doesn't hurt to double check the shaft's tightness and condition though, even if you did use the thread-locker.

the first steering box I got from them was faulty so got a replacement. I’m gonna go look at the bronco tomorrow again and go through all of it one more time.

Hmm, bad box is not good. And nobody likes shipping things twice to and from Hawai'i!

Another thing that happened in changing all the front end parts was we had to cut the trac bar and the drag link to straighten it all.. is that normal?

Holy crap NOOOO!!!
What on earth was that all about? Did you need to cut the bolts to get them off, or did you cut the bars for some reason? And with an adjustable draglink, I can't imagine anything being needed to modify it. Just loosen the clamps and adjust it to fit after the lift.
Nobody cuts their trackbar OR draglink to make them fit normally. At least not without there being a lot of other custom stuff done to a suspension to make it fit a particular need.
But just for alignment? No.
Just for a lift? Again, no.
Just for replacing parts? Three times no.

Only reason I can think of is if your truck was damaged in an accident and you're tryin g to make other things fit the damage, rather than fix the damage to fit the correct parts.
This is another big reason we need to see lots of pics please.

So far I got new tie rods new drag link new steering box new steering shaft new trac bar bushings... ball joints are tight , rear end is tight.. except the leaf springs do squeak cause the plastic spacers are worn out..

Yep, common issue. Do you know if they're factory or aftermarket springs? Not all factory springs even came with spacers.
A temporary fix (as in, a week or less per application) would be to spray with water or WD 40 or some other lube. Just in case it really bothers you.
A longer fix would be to pull the packs apart, smooth the leaves out where they're worn and rusty, clean them up and re-assemble them. Maybe even with nylon/Teflon/polyethylene rubbing sleeves you add.

Over all the geometry of the front end looks good.

Well let us see it then! Haha! Great looking Bronco, and with all the new stuff under it, we'd like to see some of this stuff anyway.
Maybe we'll see something not-so-obvious that was missed. Or jog our own memories to bring up something else.

Good luck.

Paul

 

[gr8scott]

[hijack]
Just a shout-out to my local braddahs. Help represent the 808 State and get yourselves on the members map:
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3068911#post3068911
[/hijack]

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Here are the promised pics lol sorry took so long..

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Hey Paul
The reason the trac bar got cut was it looked like it was pushing the whole body of the truck to the side by like an inch or so. This happened after I put the drop bracket on.. think that’s why had to cut the draglink after.. the adjustment didn’t have enough room so cut some thread off. Hope that wasn’t a major F$&# up.. I’m tempted to just order all new tie rods trac bar and draglink. And spend the money to get the upgraded after market ones.. ugggg

As for alignment numbers, the mechanic shop didn’t save the print out cause they new they had to do it again after we changed out the steering box for the second time.. he did say the numbers all looked good

 

[EricLar80]

Have you put a video camera down in front of the axle to view the steering when sitting in place? Video tape turning the wheel back and forth and look for the slop. You can also put it under the hood, or wherever you want. Do it sitting and not when driving so that the wheels have a lot of friction with the ground. I found that my track bar bolt hole was worn by doing this.

Post it on youtube for us to take a look at.

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks for the pics. Don't order the new stuff just yet though. Get the alignment and have the tech check the setting (whatever it's called) for the axles being centered on the frame with each other.

The drop bar is actually supposed to push the axle over to the passenger side. In fact, that's it's job. Along with lowering the overall angle of course, it also shoves the axle back to the right because a lift shoves it to the left.
The more you lift the suspension the more the axle shifts to the driver's side because that's what a rigid link like a trackbar does.
But yours does look like it "leans" inward by design, to apparently push the bar over even farther. Perhaps that's what you guys were measuring and finding out of whack?

So it's not to say you made a mistake by shortening them. Yet
Every Bronco is different and needs to be verified because there's a chance that even with the bracket it was pushing too far over.
Would be a first I think, but not impossible by any stretch.

It's interesting how much angle is still on the links though, given that you have the drops installed. Are you sure you're not sporting more than 3" of lift? Could be be 4.5 or 5.5 inches?
And who's trackbar bracket and pitman arm are they by the way? I'm just wondering why, if you installed them from the same company, are the two links out of parallel now?
And the drop bracket does seem to push the bar over to the passenger side, in addition to lowering it.
From the factory, they should have been perfectly parallel though. But here again, it's not impossible the factory messed up, and I've seen where the two were not perfectly parallel before the lift. But it's pretty rare, and the aftermarket parts should have been the same amount of drop to keep them in line.

Anyway, still a few more things to check. If you have more than 3.5" of lift you may have to go to a custom linkage setup to compensate. The Ford setups don't actually like too much change in their angles.
As most vehicle design's don't. Just that there are usually more parts you have to mess with on our rigs.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and can you take a couple more close-up pics of the C-bushings please?
They are poly, but unfortunately there's very little ability to tell what offset they are once installed.

But what I'm looking for is to find out if they're installed properly. The front bushing in pic #4 is correctly oriented, but it's hard to tell about the rear bushing in that pic.
If you can get close-ups of all four bushings from any side, as long as we can see the interface between the bushing and axle pad, we should be able to tell if they're properly oriented.

Thanks

Paul

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

I’ll try swing by after work tomorrow and take more pics.. I believe I got the pitman arm and drop bracket from Toms bronco parts.

I measured between axle and frame and I had around 10” so figure it’s a 3 1/2” lift.
The two bars are not perfectly parallel, If I’m not mistaking the two bars were off a little before I put the drops. They are a little wider apart at the bottom end.

It does seem odd to me that The trac bar had to be cut, since most trac bars are not adjustable..

Thank you all once again for all the help.
Especially legendary “dirtdonk” Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Nah, just faking that legendary status thing with a high post count to mask a lack of specific knowledge!
But I do alright on the general purpose stuff still.;D

Yep, with those measurements you would seem to have around 3" of lift. I thought you had mentioned that once, but just didn't look like the right angles. You certainly have plenty of drop, so maybe it's just the angle of the camera making the angles look more severe.
Was hoping though, since that would help explain the funky feeling when driving.
But then, that would be too easy...

Interesting that yours is off from the factory too. It's a noticeable amount, whereas most are much more parallel. The steering gear box is high on the frame, but not so much that it looks like a swap. Maybe some side shots of the box for comparison purposes.
One way to get them back to parallel would be to drill a new pair of holes farther up on the trackbar bracket. This won't improve the overall angle, but would help to get them more parallel.

But that's for later. Basics for now, then more detailed stuff later.
We'll get it there...

Paul

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Got a question.. let’s say the c bushings are ok and installed correctly. But the are only 4 degree instead of the recommended 7 degree.. you guys think that would cause the wild steering problem?

The steering on this bad boy was always loose but I wasn’t scared to drive it short distance. These extreme steering issues only happened after I upgraded my steering box to a 3.75 turn box.. you think the more sensitive box is a problem? Should I have just stuck with a stock box? I’m thinking with the new box being more sensitive it’s making smaller steering issues I had prior more magnified. What kind of steering boxes do you guys have and have you had issues with any?

 

[DirtDonk]

Possible, but not likely.
Reason I say that is that, if you have even remotely decent caster now, you won't have scary steering. But if it's, say a negative number, such as -1.4° now, then yes, adding three more degrees to bring it up into the + range would definitely help.

So it depends on what your caster is now. Which would be really nice to know. And the simplest way to know that if you don't have the tools is to get it on an alignment rack and let them give you a printout of the readings.
You can check the numbers in your driveway with a few tools, but caster is the most finicky of the three main readings.
Which means that if you can get a simple readout and not an adjustment for a few bucks at a local shop, it's money well spent.

Guess the short answers is, as with many things-Bronco, a big maybe.%)
But more caster rarely hurts, and with 3" of lift most EB's should be using 7 degree bushings anyway.
Unfortunately (there's that word again) by '76 more and more EB's were coming from the factory with decent caster numbers. So in theory, 4 degree bushings would have been the proper correction for a 3" lift. However, inconsistency was a Bronco hallmark, hence the recommendation of the alignment printout.

Can you get a picture, taken from the side, of your front driveshaft as it reaches the differential? That would show us the pinion angle. If it's way down, then installing more offset bushing would possibly bind the u-joint. If it's still higher up, you will have some leeway.
If it's very high right now, that's also a good indication that the bushings were installed incorrectly.

Lots to know about this stuff, eh?

Paul

Paul

 

[EarlybroncoHI]

Hahaha can’t know enough I guess. Feel like I’m taking a college class and failing bahaha. I’ve never learned about caster/camber toe in toe out. Don’t lots of mechanical work but never did suspension/steering stuff.. thanks for being patient with me lol.. I get some pics today, prolly won’t get alignment till I either replace the c bushings or figure out if they are good. Dang alignment shop charges a bunch to align and living here we only got one shop near by.. the next closest one is an hour drive.. and obviously I’m not driving that far lol

 

[Rustytruck]

did you check caster post 12?

https://www.harborfreight.com/dial-gauge-angle-finder-34214.html