Speed Density vrs Mass Air EFI or SEFI experiences in elevation issues. ProM, Terminator, Dominator- no TBI input please

[nvrstuk]

Need first hand experience with any elevation change performance issues with ANY Speed Density EFI systems but not any throttle body setups. So please, no Sniper or FiTech input. thx

I am seriously looking at ProM due it being Mass Air & less tuning needed by the driver/owner. Haltech also but it takes a lot of tuning.

I am currently awaiting a "fine tune" for over a month.

 

[duffymahoney]

Haltech would be a lot of tuning, but I am sure there are very nice base maps. The cool part about haltech and similar is you can have someone remote tune your car. That gets is 95-98% there and plenty good for a rig that isn't a racecar. Since you aren't chasing 5hp gains.

 

[nvrstuk]

My entire problem right now is waiting for my previous tuner (not our local EFI Guy) to give me a tune like he said he would in March.

I have been waiting a month for him to actually read my datalogs and get me running with acceptable #'s with this new cam... which suprisingly is changing afr #'s much more than several thought it would.

 

[nvrstuk]

Haltech would be a lot of tuning, but I am sure there are very nice base maps. The cool part about haltech and similar is you can have someone remote tune your car. That gets is 95-98% there and plenty good for a rig that isn't a racecar. Since you aren't chasing 5hp gains.

That's my problem now... what I have can be remote tuned and just getting someone who can dial ya in when you need them too (been 5 weeks now) is a royal pita. This is AFTER my last tuner promised me this spring that he would dial in the tune.... NEVER happened.

My new tuner (found one in Virginia) is waiting for my laptop to talk to Binary Editor. What a royal &#)$U@.... anyway, I'll get there. At least I am driving it now. Bit FAT on WOT but since I'm not defending my title at the sand dunes again this year I don't have to worry.

(this is not our EFIGuy that I'm working with. Garry has always been extremely helpful- thanks again!! )

 

[bronco italiano]

Let me share my experience with Pro-M. I lost 1,000$ and the worst customer service I have ever experienced. They even "double-teamed me" on a phone call to tell me how everything I did was wrong fuel pump, bad grounds, air box wasn't right (Stock 1991 Mustang Airbox). Look very carefully at the refund policy. 11 years ago it was no returns after 5 days of placing order (something ridiculous like that). Well it took a week to get the MAF and then I sent in my air box for them to "match it" and my bronco still ran in limp mode, over fueled a brand new machine motor and I had to take it out and back to the machine shop. I had Stock A9P ecm, Ryan's harness and brand new painless harness. Had 10 areas of ground with fully tinned copper wire. Problem was when the Pro-M was plugged into the harness it put the ecm in limp mode. Found this out after I put the C&L MAF (with 24pd calibrate injectors), Moates quarterhorse/EEC analyzer/Binary editor, and took it to Shawn at AED in Shingle springs. When Shawn had his laptop plugged in prior to starting the bronco it went into limp mode. Shawnthen started the bronco and then plugged the laptop into the Moates and he was able to dyno the bronco. Even got to meet Clint Garrity (super gentleman) too!!! Pro-M may be great but the customer service and product I got was garbage and they never even tried to make good on it.

 

[nvrstuk]

Let me share my experience with Pro-M. I lost 1,000$ and the worst customer service I have ever experienced. They even "double-teamed me" on a phone call to tell me how everything I did was wrong fuel pump, bad grounds, air box wasn't right (Stock 1991 Mustang Airbox). Look very carefully at the refund policy. 11 years ago it was no returns after 5 days of placing order (something ridiculous like that). Well it took a week to get the MAF and then I sent in my air box for them to "match it" and my bronco still ran in limp mode, over fueled a brand new machine motor and I had to take it out and back to the machine shop. I had Stock A9P ecm, Ryan's harness and brand new painless harness. Had 10 areas of ground with fully tinned copper wire. Problem was when the Pro-M was plugged into the harness it put the ecm in limp mode. Found this out after I put the C&L MAF (with 24pd calibrate injectors), Moates quarterhorse/EEC analyzer/Binary editor, and took it to Shawn at AED in Shingle springs. When Shawn had his laptop plugged in prior to starting the bronco it went into limp mode. Shawnthen started the bronco and then plugged the laptop into the Moates and he was able to dyno the bronco. Even got to meet Clint Garrity (super gentleman) too!!! Pro-M may be great but the customer service and product I got was garbage and they never even tried to make good on it.

Thanks SO much for the input.... they have bumped their warranty to one year now according to their webpage

I had heard rumors about Cliff (from other tuners). Am awaiting an email from Clint (hopefully) so I can get this language issue resolved between my laptop and BE. The ProM ecu's are now over $2200.... OUCH, don't want to throw that much money away.

Lars said he had a similar issue and is going to hunt down the fix for me. Sooooo thankful.

 

[bronco italiano]

I was wrong. I originally thought it was 3 days, but I was so upset I thought I was being biased. BUT:
Straight from: https://www.promracing.com/returns

Returns:
ALL returns must have prior written approval and be accompanied by an RGA (returned goods authorization) number. Items must be returned for refund or exchange within three (3) business days from the order date. Fitting issues is not justification for a return. Items must be returned in new condition in their original and un-opened packaging. No items will be accepted for return once they have been installed. No returns accepted on electrical/electronic components. Accepted returns are subject to a minimum of $25 or 15% restocking fee (whichever is higher) on all returned items.

Note the "three days from the order date". And is the MAF not an "electrical/electronic component??"

Read carefully.

 

[nvrstuk]

So on a $3,000 order at 15%... ouch

Or

You open ANY box and you can't return it... ouch

Or

Wow, they've had some issues with returns and have closed every door it looks like! :0

 

[rocknhorse76]

I’m schooling myself on tuning with Binary Editor. I think I can get us both squared away buddy.

 

[nvrstuk]

Well, I'm going to get this baby running and keep it running for a while. Not sure how long "a while" is but in the near future I'm going to switch systems.
My decision at this point in time is the Terminator X. I don't need it to control my trans as it won't. control a 6r. I like the option of NOx, full timing control with EDIS with cam synchronizer. I can program in 2 or more tune files to deal with trailering from my place to 6,000ft. Takes about 2 min to insert the other "elevation" file. A benefit of having multiple tune options is for the tune to save when it learns on it's own that it won't be "lost" when you turn your battery off for whatever reason.

What I don't know yet is this- if I drive from sea level to 10,000 ft the TermX learns as I drive it there and drives well. What happens if I turn the battery off at night or I need to do a repair with the battery disconnected? Will my TermX remember "the learn" on the drive up and run properly the next morning when I connect the battery back up? That I don't know. Another couple of phone calls for Holley techs and the forums.
If it won't, then I know I have a simple backup that will work immediately if I have a 2nd tune for high elevations available.

All I have to do is click a few buttons to enter in that file & load it in and it will run properly at 10,000ft

Anyway, decent price, decent support, thousands of them out there for replacement and I can program it with hopefully the least amount of time/effort. Will see...


Thanks for the input all.

 

[73azbronco]

That's my problem now... what I have can be remote tuned and just getting someone who can dial ya in when you need them too (been 5 weeks now) is a royal pita. This is AFTER my last tuner promised me this spring that he would dial in the tune.... NEVER happened.

My new tuner (found one in Virginia) is waiting for my laptop to talk to Binary Editor. What a royal &#)$U@.... anyway, I'll get there. At least I am driving it now. Bit FAT on WOT but since I'm not defending my title at the sand dunes again this year I don't have to worry.

(this is not our EFIGuy that I'm working with. Garry has always been extremely helpful- thanks again!! )

ship him the laptop?

 

[nvrstuk]

I can sure understand why this is confusing and hard to follow.

Recap-
So my tuner in New Orleans just up and quit (do a Google if you want more evidence) responding to many of his previous customers. Since I'm still in need of a tune the new guy (2 weeks now) uses a different program. So I downloaded the program (BE) he needs to read my datalogs and the program wouldn't "talk" to Windows. THAT took 2 weeks to get the computer and program to talk. Had 3 guys across the US helping-seriously (Virginia, Midwest, Cali).

So with it finally working I did a couple datalogs and my new tuner replied with 2 tunes and all seemed well. IT so happened that the actual guy that WROTE Binary Editor and several other tuning programs in use today had said he would gladly look at my laptop and see why the software and laptop wouldn't talk. He called and helped me for 2 hrs on the phone. He made some changes AND he upgraded my Binary Editor program to the latest update from the one I had redownloaded the prior week.

Next day I try to datalog and the BE program wouldn't allow me to datalog. So a FULL WEEK of trying to determine if my TPS died, the wiring from after the 6r trans controller splices into my TPS wiring was suspect, is the ECU getting data from the TPS? etc... a full week

Then after Garry shared (thanks again) that BE has a couple faulty updates and me finally understanding that then I need to re-download ANOTHER Binary Editor file and hopefully get the dang software to work like it's supposed to WITH my Windows laptop so my new tuner can finish dialing in the tune my 460sb needs.

Whew- short summary.

Tossed in a couple tuning pics, datalog overlays on Binary Editor, several hundred acres of sunflowers just up the road, and 4 bucks

Have a good weekend all.

 

[DirtDonk]

You had me at “whew”…

 

[nvrstuk]

Yeah, a lot there but I need details & answers b4 I'll lay out the cash and I really don't want to be trapped like this again(new engine but can't tune it for 6 weeks!!) -major suckage!

At least I'm driving it now. No way could I drive for 2 hr jaunts or do snow bashing but at least my numbers allow me to safely cruise around the Valley.

Course with a dark red sun and visibility down to less than a mile driving outside is like working in your shop with the doors shut and the engine running! Cough, cough

 

[nvrstuk]

If anybody is still reading this long involved software and computer disaster I have good news.

I can datalog and Clint dialed me in at rpms up to 3 bills not under load. One hour and 20 min this time.
Great start, my head is spinning again. (I think it takes less each month for my brain to fill up and spin) lol

 

[nvrstuk]

UPDATE‐

I have sent over 60, yes sixty datalogs to the tuner. I'm sure this poor guy thought that he'd be done in 5 or 6 tunes but he has sent me over 20 different tunes.

Yeah, stock engines are easy! lol

Anyway, it runs fine but all the power down low isn't there. I think when I told him I could hear the valves rattling at 35mph at 1700rpm in 3rd he pulled too much timing.to be safe. My only symptom where I notice that the pwr is down cause it doesn't chirp the 40" tire when shifting into 2nd at 2,000 rpm about 7/10 times like it did before.

Oh well, it idles well and that's what you do on the Rubicon and it was flawless there-so finally, something good after fighting Ford Performance for 11 months and no usable tunes for almost 2 months after I put it all back together. The positve- it's running! Yay!

I am getting the best around town mileage that I have in years as I do the math with every fillup and I average 9mpg now. Not 8.5 like the last 3 yrs. lol

Need to take a road trip and see if I can get 11 on the highway.

I am switching to Holley Term X eventually. I would like to do it when there is still a demand for all my Qtrhorse stuff, 2- A9L's & 1 A9P ECU, a single J3 chip for burning permanent tunes on, complete pkg
All works great, just hard dialing this combination in on software & hardware designed for 300 less HP is all.

 

[76Broncofromhell]

UPDATE‐

I have sent over 60, yes sixty datalogs to the tuner. I'm sure this poor guy thought that he'd be done in 5 or 6 tunes but he has sent me over 20 different tunes.

Yeah, stock engines are easy! lol

Anyway, it runs fine but all the power down low isn't there. I think when I told him I could hear the valves rattling at 35mph at 1700rpm in 3rd he pulled too much timing.to be safe. My only symptom where I notice that the pwr is down cause it doesn't chirp the 40" tire when shifting into 2nd at 2,000 rpm about 7/10 times like it did before.

Oh well, it idles well and that's what you do on the Rubicon and it was flawless there-so finally, something good after fighting Ford Performance for 11 months and no usable tunes for almost 2 months after I put it all back together. The positve- it's running! Yay!

I am getting the best around town mileage that I have in years as I do the math with every fillup and I average 9mpg now. Not 8.5 like the last 3 yrs. lol

Need to take a road trip and see if I can get 11 on the highway.

I am switching to Holley Term X eventually. I would like to do it when there is still a demand for all my Qtrhorse stuff, 2- A9L's & 1 A9P ECU, a single J3 chip for burning permanent tunes on, complete pkg
All works great, just hard dialing this combination in on software & hardware designed for 300 less HP is all.

Good summary. I've had decent luck on the QH and the J3 tuning. I'd definitely take an A9L or P ECU off your hands when you're ready.

 

[nvrstuk]

Send me a pm with email addy so I can save it to my other efi/build notes.

Thx

 

[rocknhorse76]

UPDATE‐

I have sent over 60, yes sixty datalogs to the tuner. I'm sure this poor guy thought that he'd be done in 5 or 6 tunes but he has sent me over 20 different tunes.

Yeah, stock engines are easy! lol

Anyway, it runs fine but all the power down low isn't there. I think when I told him I could hear the valves rattling at 35mph at 1700rpm in 3rd he pulled too much timing.to be safe. My only symptom where I notice that the pwr is down cause it doesn't chirp the 40" tire when shifting into 2nd at 2,000 rpm about 7/10 times like it did before.

Oh well, it idles well and that's what you do on the Rubicon and it was flawless there-so finally, something good after fighting Ford Performance for 11 months and no usable tunes for almost 2 months after I put it all back together. The positve- it's running! Yay!

I am getting the best around town mileage that I have in years as I do the math with every fillup and I average 9mpg now. Not 8.5 like the last 3 yrs. lol

Need to take a road trip and see if I can get 11 on the highway.

I am switching to Holley Term X eventually. I would like to do it when there is still a demand for all my Qtrhorse stuff, 2- A9L's & 1 A9P ECU, a single J3 chip for burning permanent tunes on, complete pkg
All works great, just hard dialing this combination in on software & hardware designed for 300 less HP is all.

As you know all too well, I’m in the same boat buddy. I just need you to be the guinea pig on the Term X!

 

[nvrstuk]

Seems like I'm the guinea pig for more than a few Bronco ideas over the decades!

I enjoy it but sometimes it can be like buying Bitcoin stock!

I'm doing it...