Most Practical low dollar Engine/Transmission swap

[jckkys]

I've bought and run 6 or 7 Crown Vic P71s over the last 40 some years and found the 4.6/AOD combination to be a cheap to buy and run combo in a 4000lb Crown Vic. It gives excellent mileage, great low end torque, and plenty of power. I don't suffer from the need to make an EB into a dragster. I want to tour the country in a gorgeous '68/'77 EB that I can keep on the road without constant tinkering. The late as 2005-2011 P71s have a high stall speed torque converter that makes the EB very strong off the line, and the lock up OD keeps things cool. The 351 I've been running seems sluggish and thirsty in comparison. Any rebuild would be expensive compared to a JY P71 with plenty of miles left. There's thousands out there and they are all the same. I'm hoping someone has assembled the needed parts to do this very common and low dollar swap. We all want to keep our restored EBs running on and off the road.

 

[bronco italiano]

Unless you fab it all yourself, and have the steel in your shop, there is no longer a term called "low dollar swap" for any cars. I just spent a lot of money to build an old FE engine. I could have went Godzilla with trans for what I paid.

 

[Broncobowsher]

It's not common or low dollar to fit that tall, fat engine into a short, narrow Bronco engine bay. I'll start with the simple one, do you want the driver's side camshaft installed, or do you want brakes? Because the master cylinder wants to live in the same location as the camshaft wants to be in. You are fooling yourself thinking it is a common and low dollar swap with a simple parts list. A few were done 15-20 years ago. When that was a neat new engine to try and swap into stuff.

You want a practical and low cost swap into a Bronco, 2nd gen Explorer 5.0 V8. Same transmission you find in your P71, but attached to an engine that fits and bolts right into the Bronco engine compartment. Just make sure to gear the axles to match the new overdrive. A Bronco has WAY more drag (aero and rolling) than a crown vic, and a taller tire as well. Good gearing is typically in the 4s, and with a tall tire maybe even into the 5s.

The 351 is a great engine for the Bronco. But you may find it sluggish if the rest of the setups is wrong. Try running 33 or 35" tires with the base 3.50 gears and any engine will feel sluggish in a Bronco. What transmission, gears, and tires are you running now that you feel makes it sluggish? Also define "thirsty". That may be due to too tall of a tire for the gearing as well, trying to lug the engine and that kills economy. Fairly normal Bronco Economy is 10MPG, good is 12MPG. Few outliers. But what you can normally expect, regardless of what engine is in it (and a few folks will jump in and brag about how good there diesel is, but those are not typical Broncos).

 

[m_m70]

The 351 is a great engine for the Bronco. But you may find it sluggish if the rest of the setups is wrong. Try running 33 or 35" tires with the base 3.50 gears and any engine will feel sluggish in a Bronco. What transmission, gears, and tires are you running now that you feel makes it sluggish? Also define "thirsty". That may be due to too tall of a tire for the gearing as well, trying to lug the engine and that kills economy. Fairly normal Bronco Economy is 10MPG, good is 12MPG.

Can't say it any better than this. ^^^^^ You will need to post your current setup for anyone to give you any advice.....axle gearing, transmission your running and what tires you have.

You may just find that 351 is great and your axle gears needs to be changed out (which is my guess).

 

[73azbronco]

first, nothing about an engine swap can be considered low dollar, sorry. 4.6 is not a popular choice, bordering on unheard of, it will not be cheap based on modifications you need to perform. a 351 will outperform the 4.6 in every regard, including mpg, dont expect to get same mpg

most practical low dollar swap, explorer.

best for you might be, look at why the 351 is not working for you, maybe gear, cam, tire size

 

[1969]

I keep this quote tucked away for times like this

1. More money than brains: Coyote 5.0
2. More time than money: 1996 Ford 351W.
3. I break shit, and like to go fast, and when someone is stuck, they call me: Blueprint 408W.
4. I ain't rich, and I need a Bronco that runs now: Mustang 5.0.
5. I need cheap reliable horsepower, I have no friends, and I don't want any: LS swap.

 

[nvrstuk]

What bowsher said... 100%

BTW, James didn't included me in the ownership group #1-5 above. I am #5.5 not on the list.

 

[onpier55]

Low cost engine swap. Go to pick and pull and find and explorer 5.0 with less than 150k miles. I’ve pulled two out and have been running mine for five years. No issues. $454 complete motor out the door. I’ve done it twice. One motor with 150k and another motor with 65k. Just gotta do some legwork. I go once a month and walk it and check mileage on the odometers. Good luck.

 

[Madgyver]

build it yourself... 302/C4 or 3 on the tree

 

[nvrstuk]

OP- Nothing common and low dollar about your proposed swap into an EB. Like mentioned by all the posts above by experienced owners of Broncos the cheapest, most reliable, no tinker engine, and generally the most fuel efficient engine for a Bronco is the Exploder 5.0 w/4r70W trans. ALL these guys above have done tons of swaps and have tons of experience. My recommendation would be to not blow them off. I only know one guy that was trying to put a 4.6 into an EB and fitment was horrific and he never finished it.

 

[Yeller]

I'll second the fitment. I have worked on one with a 4.6, then later same one with a 5.4. the modifications to get them to fit is intense unless your into reworking everything to fit around it. That owner was not happy with the power output of the 4.6 with 35's and 4.88 gearing, went to the 5.4, fuel mileage and power increased, he was much happier. Even then he never broke 14mpg. Fitting either of those is not easy. reshaped both inner fenders and firewall, moved the master cylinder over to be in front of where the clutch pedal would have been, notched the front crossmember in the frame for the harmonic balancer, reshaped all of the core support, it is just a Frankenstein project, then you have to get it to run with little to no support, doable but not cheap or easy.

Give us more specs, we can help and willing to bet it costs less than swapping or rebuilding any engine.

I know probably not what you wanted to hear but this is an experienced, salty group that has been there and done that. For some reason they let my own Frankenstein hang out here..... LOL

 

[nvrstuk]

"Salty group"? Benefit of the doubt maybe??

 

[Yeller]

"Salty group"? Benefit of the doubt maybe??

a few hear are like old, experienced, sea captains


I started to throw "grizzled" in there too but I was being conscientious of others feelings, while most of us are ok being called old, not everyone likes being called older than dirt and ugly

 

[nvrstuk]

Well, all those terms you just posted describe me to the letter! I've even done the boat thing! lol

 

[Timmy390]

Gears....the #1 way to get more power and response is proper gearing.

When I regeared from 3.50 to 4.11's it was adding 100hp. Yes I turned more RPM but it was a night and day difference. I did all the work myself and saved a bundle.

Later I went warmed up 351W and my rig ripped. I then went M5ODR2 and it still rips but has the ability to cruse back roads at low RPM and still has power.

Nothing cheap about it.....it all costs $$$

Tim

 

[toddz69]

I've bought and run 6 or 7 Crown Vic P71s over the last 40 some years and found the 4.6/AOD combination to be a cheap to buy and run combo in a 4000lb Crown Vic. It gives excellent mileage, great low end torque, and plenty of power. I don't suffer from the need to make an EB into a dragster. I want to tour the country in a gorgeous '68/'77 EB that I can keep on the road without constant tinkering. The late as 2005-2011 P71s have a high stall speed torque converter that makes the EB very strong off the line, and the lock up OD keeps things cool. The 351 I've been running seems sluggish and thirsty in comparison. Any rebuild would be expensive compared to a JY P71 with plenty of miles left. There's thousands out there and they are all the same. I'm hoping someone has assembled the needed parts to do this very common and low dollar swap. We all want to keep our restored EBs running on and off the road.

I almost feel like you're punking us here @jckkys , as you've been very vocal here over the years about how awesome your carb'd 351 is , no need for EFI, etc. That said, Dennis Hogue at Wiretec in southern CA has a 4.6 (from a Crown Vic, I think), in his EB and from what I last knew, he was pretty happy with it. I don't think Dennis is a member here but others may know how to contact him.

Todd Z.

 

[jckkys]

I know the the over head cam makes any engine a lot wider. My question was mainly aimed to find out how much and what workarounds have bin successful to economically overcome the problem. The answer was; there were none. My point was, the P71s are super abundant and thus cheap, including replacement parts. I did drive an Explorer 5.0 for a while and liked the way it performed. On the other hand there is only one of these for several thousand late model P71s. I still have no idea why anyone would want a 600hp EB. They are designed to access locations almost nothing else can while being safe and,comfortable on the roads. A hot rod engine would frustrate those goals. The EB was a brilliant design in '66 and I think with minimal updated parts they are still outstanding. I respect the historic significance of that. So my 68-77 is as nearly as possible built with Ford parts and looks like a real stock EB. However I also want a potential DD that can be a competent off road vehicle. The 5.0/AOD Explorer is likely the best compromise. I'll have to live with a more expensive but still doable set up. I think the idea of searching someone's posts for years just to find fault is sick. Tho you did offer some helpful info in the end. So thank you. PS WTF is punking?

 

[toddz69]

Jack - it was all in good fun. You and I have both been members here for years and I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts - I didn’t have to search any post history. Punking is to trick or deceive in this case.

FWIW - I think you’d like an Explorer V8. I’ve had a Mustang 5.0 (kissing cousin to the Explorer) since ‘97 in my rig and I’ve now put over 150k on it and it’s been very reliable although it won’t win any drag races.

Todd Z.

 

[73azbronco]

While the 4.6 might be easier to source today, that tells you not many use them or want them, over time those excess 4.6 will become molten stock for the next engine down the road. So long long term, the 4.6 will become a pretty rare item. While the Windsor block, as hard as it is to find, will probably remain stable in sourcing and are even being reforged. Not seeing a Dart 4.6 anytime in the future.

 

[jckkys]

Mostly as a result of police cars there are millions of 4.6 engines here and millions more around the world. They won't disappear any time soon. There were a lot of assumptions in the above posts, mostly all wrong. My 351 is essentially new with hundreds of thousands of miles left in it. I don't NEED a different engine. The fuel economy of a similar weight P71 is about 6 MPG better than my EB. EFI is part of that, larger tires and a miserable lack of stream lining is the rest. True EFI is difficult and expensive in a 351. So TB injection is the only practical way. The 351 was expensive to build and 2.8s are so cheap I wouldn't bother. I can get one for about $800. The BS about 600 HP still makes no sense. A P71 will do 140 with 250 HP and I don't want to go that fast without good reason. In an EB it would be suicidal.