VIN on frame vs title vs Marti Report

[tman6508]

I recently purchased a 1973 Bronco where the VIN on the frame was one digit off of the title. The guy selling the vehicle has a dealers license so he had the vehicle retitled to match the frame before selling it to me. I submitted the VIN as it appears on the frame and on the corrected title to Marti and received an invalid VIN response. I resubmitted the incorrect VIN from the previous title and the results match the history I was told on the vehicle and lines up to everything I'm finding out.

Is this misprinted title common, or should I be concerned? First thing I thought of is that if I have the glovebox or door tag recreated it will be for the old incorrect title.

Ex. Frame VIN - 72553
Old Title VIN - 72653

 

[okie4570]

Curious if all the other vin locations on the frame are one digit off as well.

 

[tman6508]

The one near the shock tower was the obvious one with the body on and why the PO had it corrected. I'll take a close look tomorrow and look for the other locations further back on the frame rail, but I don't remember clearly seeing them.

 

[LUBr LuvR]

I recently purchased a 1973 Bronco where the VIN on the frame was one digit off of the title. The guy selling the vehicle has a dealers license so he had the vehicle retitled to match the frame before selling it to me. I submitted the VIN as it appears on the frame and on the corrected title to Marti and received an invalid VIN response. I resubmitted the incorrect VIN from the previous title and the results match the history I was told on the vehicle and lines up to everything I'm finding out.

Is this misprinted title common, or should I be concerned? First thing I thought of is that if I have the glovebox or door tag recreated it will be for the old incorrect title.

Ex. Frame VIN - 82653
Old Title VIN - 82753

Have a similar situation, found when the owner before me went to title the rig. Frame ends in 38, glovebox ends in 39. He had to do a bonded title, truck was issued a state issued ID number due to the mismatch. Frame stamp is one of the cleanest I’ve seen. Marti said the frame stamp VIN was never issued to a Bronco - possibly last digits of the VIN we’re used on a truck before it on the assembly line?
Have not checked the other VIN location.

Some states are more detailed/strict than others. It could present problems down the road if you ever decide to sell the truck. Definitely something you would need to disclose to a prospective buyer. Curious as to how the seller was able to get the title issued with the other VIN number.....wouldn’t the issuing state check for validity?

Chalked mine up to the build date being on Halloween, lol. Named him Levi (Little Error Vin Inscription)

 

[okie4570]

The one near the shock tower was the obvious one with the body on and why the PO had it corrected. I'll take a close look tomorrow and look for the other locations further back on the frame rail, but I don't remember clearly seeing them.

They're not easy to see with the body on.

 

[tman6508]

I've got the body off but we've since covered them over with sprayable body filler. I guess I could wire brush/sand it down to find them but probably won't.

 

[LUBr LuvR]

I've got the body off but we've since covered them over with sprayable body filler. I guess I could wire brush/sand it down to find them but probably won't.

Lol, the old “curiosity killed the cat” - if the body was off, I’d have to know......

 

[DirtDonk]

You are actually covering the VINs on the frame to the point that they are no longer readable?
How is that going to help anything?
Or is it just temporary?

Having the VIN’s that are one digit off, is fairly common with Broncos. We hear about it here fairly often.
Yours is the first one I remember that was retitled to match the frame, but it’s easy to understand why Marti would have the (correct) one on the title. Because they go by paperwork.

Most entities never bother to check the frame when a vehicle is being sold. And some that do can chalk up the discrepancy to normal mistakes.

 

[jamesroney]

You are actually covering the VINs on the frame to the point that they are no longer readable?
How is that going to help anything?
Or is it just temporary?

Having the VIN’s that are one digit off, is fairly common with Broncos. We hear about it here fairly often.
Yours is the first one I remember that was retitled to match the frame, but it’s easy to understand why Marti would have the mistaken one. Because they go by paperwork.

Most entities never bother to check the frame when a vehicle is being sold. And some that do can chalk up the discrepancy to normal mistakes.

I just want to end the "Marti has the mistake..." discussion.

When a vehicle is created, the identity exists long before any metal gets bent. The vehicle is identified by the Vehicle Identification Number, which exists prior to the frame being stamped. The documentation establishing the VIN is the Certificate or Origin by the manufacturer. THAT is the real, bonafide, correct VIN.

The Certificate of Origin is submitted to the regulatory agency, and that number is used to create a Title. As you observed, no one ever looks at the physical number.

The fact is that the number on @tman6508 paperwork is the correct and true VIN, and the number stamped on the frame is the mistake. So Marti does not have the mistaken one. As you said, a missing or incorrect digit on the stamping, or the paperwork does happen. 99.9% of the time, it is correct...but even .1% adds up to a few hundred mistakes per month.

The problem is that the OP has found a true Unicorn. But what do you do with a Unicorn? Sometimes it is best to cut off it's horn and call it a horse. Otherwise, you spend endless effort explaining why you have a unicorn.

There are many instances where the title is "corrected" to match the VIN. errors and omissions are commonplace. What is new and difficult is that Kevin Marti has the database of VIN's. So now it is possible to confirm the existence of unicorns. And the vast majority of people do not believe in unicorns. So you are in a difficult spot.

There are a couple of ways to handle the discrepancy. Some are better than others. Some include asking Law Enforcement, or DMV. Those are generally the worst, and end with the silliness that @LUBr LuvR has described. Assigned VIN is a big negative in Bronco value. I'm not advocating any solutions. This is a public forum. Probably the worst place to get Unicorn advice...

 

[DirtDonk]

Corrected my wording…

 

[tman6508]

You are actually covering the VINs on the frame to the point that they are no longer readable?
How is that going to help anything?
Or is it just temporary?

Having the VIN’s that are one digit off, is fairly common with Broncos. We hear about it here fairly often.
Yours is the first one I remember that was retitled to match the frame, but it’s easy to understand why Marti would have the (correct) one on the title. Because they go by paperwork.

Most entities never bother to check the frame when a vehicle is being sold. And some that do can chalk up the discrepancy to normal mistakes.

Just temporary, I will clean up the filler and have the VIN(s) visible. As LUBr mentioned, I'm also very curios now as to the other VIN and will clean that one up too.

 

[tman6508]

I just want to end the "Marti has the mistake..." discussion.

When a vehicle is created, the identity exists long before any metal gets bent. The vehicle is identified by the Vehicle Identification Number, which exists prior to the frame being stamped. The documentation establishing the VIN is the Certificate or Origin by the manufacturer. THAT is the real, bonafide, correct VIN.

The Certificate of Origin is submitted to the regulatory agency, and that number is used to create a Title. As you observed, no one ever looks at the physical number.

The fact is that the number on @tman6508 paperwork is the correct and true VIN, and the number stamped on the frame is the mistake. So Marti does not have the mistaken one. As you said, a missing or incorrect digit on the stamping, or the paperwork does happen. 99.9% of the time, it is correct...but even .1% adds up to a few hundred mistakes per month.

The problem is that the OP has found a true Unicorn. But what do you do with a Unicorn? Sometimes it is best to cut off it's horn and call it a horse. Otherwise, you spend endless effort explaining why you have a unicorn.

There are many instances where the title is "corrected" to match the VIN. errors and omissions are commonplace. What is new and difficult is that Kevin Marti has the database of VIN's. So now it is possible to confirm the existence of unicorns. And the vast majority of people do not believe in unicorns. So you are in a difficult spot.

There are a couple of ways to handle the discrepancy. Some are better than others. Some include asking Law Enforcement, or DMV. Those are generally the worst, and end with the silliness that @LUBr LuvR has described. Assigned VIN is a big negative in Bronco value. I'm not advocating any solutions. This is a public forum. Probably the worst place to get Unicorn advice...

The person I bought the Bronco from claimed he had to correct the title to match the frame because he is a dealer and could not sell a vehicle with the title and frame not matching. The title says corrected.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, but at some point during the creation of the vehicle and after resales and what-have-you, the frame printed VIN seems to take precedent to the original Ford paperwork.

 

[DirtDonk]

Which is understandable, what with the way things work out here in the real world. But as mentioned, the "mistake" was in the frame stamping, not the paperwork. At least in theory...
So also in theory, correcting the frame stamping would be the way to go. But I wonder what kind of can-o-worms that would open!

You're not allowed to normally modify the frame VIN, but I wonder how this would work if there was another vehicle on the road with the new corrected VIN paperwork to match the stamp?
Since they were a dealer, I wonder if they did a full search for other vehicles registered under that number. I suppose that, even if they did not, it would have popped up when it was re-registered with the new number.
So in theory you should be clean to go.

But it's good to keep all this paperwork, and all your other ducks, in a row. Even save this discussion for future reference if anyone decides to "re-register" a previously off-the-road F-series with your VIN.
I say "f-series" because Broncos and trucks were produced on the same assembly line. But I suppose passenger cars and vans were also using the same sequencing of numbers?
If so, the number on your frame could have been anything.

Paul

 

[jamesroney]

Which is understandable, what with the way things work out here in the real world. But as mentioned, the "mistake" was in the frame stamping, not the paperwork. At least in theory...
So also in theory, correcting the frame stamping would be the way to go. But I wonder what kind of can-o-worms that would open!

You're not allowed to normally modify the frame VIN, but I wonder how this would work if there was another vehicle on the road with the new corrected VIN paperwork to match the stamp?
Since they were a dealer, I wonder if they did a full search for other vehicles registered under that number. I suppose that, even if they did not, it would have popped up when it was re-registered with the new number.
So in theory you should be clean to go.

But it's good to keep all this paperwork, and all your other ducks, in a row. Even save this discussion for future reference if anyone decides to "re-register" a previously off-the-road F-series with your VIN.
I say "f-series" because Broncos and trucks were produced on the same assembly line. But I suppose passenger cars and vans were also using the same sequencing of numbers?
If so, the number on your frame could have been anything.

Paul

Well, now you are asking whether it is acceptable to make reasonable and necessary repairs to a vehicle or component without triggering a Vin tampering violation. (And it is.)

But DON’t!!! It is vastly easier to “explain” why you left the horn on your unicorn. And don’t worry about a duplicate VIN out there. There won’t be…because the U15 prefix makes the VIN unique. There will for sure be a vehicle with with the same 5 digit series number (last 5 of VIn) but it will be a Van, or truck, or whatever.

I'm sending @tman6508 a PM. I'm going to tell you why you want to delete this thread.

 

[DirtDonk]

Great point on the U15 aspect.
Totally ignored that.

 

[DirtDonk]

Unless the next vehicle in the sequence was also a bronco? I assume that happened on the assembly line now and then?

 

[DirtDonk]

Never mind. I just read the first post over again and see that it wasn’t the last digit. So it’s 100 vehicles off. Still…

 

[jamesroney]

Never mind. I just read the first post over again and see that it wasn’t the last digit. So it’s 100 vehicles off. Still…

Yep, but marti already told him that the sequence number that is 100 off is not a Bronco…

 

[okie4570]

Yep, but marti already told him that the sequence number that is 100 off is not a Bronco…

I've reread this a dozen times lol, I guess I'm missing where he said that the vin is for another vehicle per Marti, help me out james

No other vins started with U, only broncos, and no other vehicles were running down the line with broncos after 66'. I've just never had Marti reply with anything other than "invalid vin" when I've given them an incorrect vin. They're usually tight lipped about anything other than what goes on the report.

 

[jamesroney]

I've reread this a dozen times lol, I guess I'm missing where he said that the vin is for another vehicle per Marti, help me out james

No other vins started with U, only broncos, and no other vehicles were running down the line with broncos after 66'. I've just never had Marti reply with anything other than "invalid vin" when I've given them an incorrect vin. They're usually tight lipped about anything other than what goes on the report.

Literally the third sentence of the original post:

"I submitted the VIN as it appears on the frame and on the corrected title to Marti and received an invalid VIN"

Translated: Marti said the Frame VIN was invalid.
Interpreted: The 11 digit frame VIN is not found in the Bronco database.

So it is what Marti didn't say that tells you what he said. If you enter an otherwise valid search string, and you find a null response in the database query...the answer is "invalid VIN."

It does not mean that the sequence number (last 5) are invalid. It just means that there is not a match to the 11 digit search string. Since the whole thing has to match to be "valid."

Gotta be careful when you say: "Down the line." It's a misnomer. The unique series number (last 5 digits) are PLANT specific, and assigned when the order is scheduled. So yes, there was a dedicated Bronco Line, but the sequence numbers were assigned to the Plant.