Stock leaf springs from Wild Horses - Pinion angle a mess

[DirtDonk]

But we keep coming back to WH stock height leaf springs being the only ones reported as needing shims.
None of the other vendors stock height springs have been mentioned as giving 2 to 3 inches of lift, at least none that I have seen.

A reasonable concern. However I believe that only WH and BCB have thicker packs in stock height to begin with. Which narrows the list down a bit.
Theirs is a 9-leaf and ours is a 10-leaf. So not a lot to compare to in design perhaps, even when compared to stock 5 and 6 packs.
And we really don't know how many owners experience things and don't report on them, or do and just don't do it here. But it's still a valid question and I don't know the answer yet.

Oh and Paul, I just want to make it clear that I’m not bad mouthing WH in any way...

Nope, not at all. Haven't felt that way since we've been discussing all aspects and directions to take in all the discussions.
Thanks!

Paul, I bet the spring arc is different. Anybody lay a stock set over a new/lifted set? You would be hard pressed to see or know a 5 degree change in perch angle looking at springs on the floor I think.

That's what I'd like to know. But for sure the overall arc/arch is different between the three types of springs. By "three" types I mean totally stock 5 and 6-leaf type (has the most arch), and for comparison one of our 11-leaf lifted springs (medium arch) and our 10-pack stock height (least arch) in this discussion.
The lifted spring not only has one more leaf, but more arch. And likely a higher spring rate to go along with that as well.

How this might possibly equate to a different angle at the perch is not determined though.

Wouldn't it be better to increase the spring rate a little, making them stiffer for a heavier load make more sense than to make a stock height spring set with the same arch as a 3 inch lift in the hope it will settle?
An unloaded Bronco might ride a little harder that way, but it wouldn't have a stance like an old jacked up muscle car.

Again a good question. But for now at least, no it would not be better for our springs.
We've come to the "softer is better, but only up to a point" conclusion over a long haul of selling suspension parts. And listening to customers.
Yes, stiffer would allow more load and perhaps more consistent initial heights (maybe), as well as more load carrying capacity. But most of our customers never asked for either of those. Instead they ask for the softest ride available, with the most flex possible, while not losing too much in the other categories. Which is what we've tried to accommodate.
I do believe we should be able to achieve that goal without the added height initially, but I'll have to leave the final answer to that to someone that knows how these springs are designed and built better than I do.

From the spring rate and design criteria, we managed to strike a pretty reasonable balance between ride quality (it's never going to be great in a vehicle like this), load capacity, reliability, flexibility (used to be one of the main priorities in fact, but I'm sure we've all seen where the market has gone lately in that regard), safety (the double-wrap eye) and road manners/handling.
The current versions ride better, sag less, break leaves less often, flex more and just work better overall than any springs of the past did. So in that we succeeded as good as we could have hoped.

But I'm still not sure where this stink-bug stance initially comes from. From most of the reports you guys that have the too-high-in-the-rear stance have been giving lately, it's not the same as it was before. When they sat high in the rear before it was a pretty quick matter of just drive it a few miles, or weeks until it settles. Load the back up with a couple hundred additional pounds and things settle down even sooner. But apparently not with everyone. The last couple of years have seen more last longer. Either that or, not wanting to wait, simply remove leaves until the desired height is achieved. Then put them back as the springs settle down.
Luckily it's still a pretty small percentage that don't just settle right down, but that doesn't make it any easier for the ones that do have the issue.

To the OP though, Flintster did you call in and check to see what others had to say? If so, what was the result? You going to continue and see how long it takes to settle, or decide to go with a Plan-B if you don't want to deal with it?

Hopefully you end up satisfied. Either with the product itself (not yet of course), or if not, at least the service!
But too, while you're still dealing with it, if you have some ratchet straps it would be interesting to see what your pinion angle is when at stock height with our springs.
In other words, using the straps you could compress the suspension to an approximately 6" height between the top of the axle tube and the bottom of the frame rail to see if the pinion angle stays the same or goes back to it's "stock" angle, where you would not need shims.

Lots of side chatter here while you toil away on your Bronco, but from our standpoint it's still interesting to discuss it all and narrow this stuff down to the cure.

Thanks again for your patience in dealing with this dilemma.

Paul

 

[mpboxer]

To the OP though, Flintster did you call in and check to see what others had to say? If so, what was the result? You going to continue and see how long it takes to settle, or decide to go with a Plan-B if you don't want to deal with it?

What's plan B? I spoke with Cory yesterday and he said only two others have experienced this and they are investigating it. He said to take the third and possibly fifth out to achieve stock height. I asked about other options and he said that was it at the moment?

 

[DirtDonk]

Well it might be only two others in his personal experience. Or he might just have meant currently speaking, but we know there are more than just the two. Though some, including yours are not exactly new business.

But the Plan-B I was thinking of was either going with a taller front coil, or flat out returning them if they're not working to your satisfaction. Of course, it would be nice to get a relatively quick answer to the "investigating it" aspect. But we don't know that at the moment.

I thought you had already removed leaves from yours? Or did you go another way? Sorry, I remember the conversation but not what you ended up doing because we talked about so many things at the time.

 

[mpboxer]

Well it might be only two others in his personal experience. Or he might just have meant currently speaking, but we know there are more than just the two. Though some, including yours are not exactly new business.

But the Plan-B I was thinking of was either going with a taller front coil, or flat out returning them if they're not working to your satisfaction. Of course, it would be nice to get a relatively quick answer to the "investigating it" aspect. But we don't know that at the moment.

I thought you had already removed leaves from yours? Or did you go another way? Sorry, I remember the conversation but not what you ended up doing because we talked about so many things at the time.

Yeah, I was looking at my previous thread about this and there are at least four there that chimed in with the same problem. So I know of more than two also.

When going with a taller front coil, will longer shocks be needed? My truck isn't an off road rig, but don't want to be limited to downward travel if need be either.

I removed the two smaller leaves and added 6* shims. I'm at 8.5" and installed back in June. I was debating on pulling the third leaf, but decided to give it some more time to settle before doing so, since you have to disassemble the pack. Plus my time is valuable and there's a part of me that doesn't want to have to make all these corrections to brand new "Stock Height" leaves. The reason I went stock was to maintain factory angles and not add shims, drop brackets, drop pitman arms, adjustable drag link and trac bar, etc.

I think I'll wait until the investigating is done before taking more leaves out. Ultimately, running these probably makes the most sense. What it costs for shipping these back and shipping new ones out maybe WH could discuss some compensation. Especially the extra time in dealing with modifying these springs. I'm glad I can do the work myself. Imagine how expensive it would be if you had to pay someone to do this stuff.

 

[WILDHORSES]

We have finished looking into the WH stock rear leaves and we agree they are running a couple inches tall. Our new stock height leaf design should be available in about 10-12 weeks or so.

Any customers who wish to return the rear springs will need to give WH a call and we will get you shipping tags so you can send them back. We will swap them out when the new ones arrive, refund your card or give you store credit, your choice.

There are also a few ways to make the springs drop and this may be a good choice that gives you options in the future if your needs change. For example running more weight via bigger spare, heavy bumpers etc. We have experimented with removing leaves from the pack. You can remove #3 from the top and the bottom 2 for about an 1.5" drop. Keep them around for any future changes. Also keep in mind most leave spring packs will settle a bit over time.

Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused. Get in touch with us ASAP 209-400-7200.

Jim

 

[DirtDonk]

Yeah, I was looking at my previous thread about this and there are at least four there that chimed in with the same problem. So I know of more than two also.

Certainly for stock height AND lifted. Not sure how many of the comments are for lifted springs vs stock height, so maybe there was a mix in your thread(?) and he was thinking stock height only, as the current discussion was related to.

When going with a taller front coil, will longer shocks be needed? My truck isn't an off road rig, but don't want to be limited to downward travel if need be either.

Good question. Usually the taller coil is an option with lifted springs because you use the same shocks for a 2.5 that you do for a 3.5 (2-4 inches same). But with stock, then going a full 2.5 inches above, you would definitely need longer shocks (0-2 inches same).
Same thing sometimes for the rear as well.

I wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that, because it's a legit option when lifted springs are higher than expected. But since we don't have a 1.5" spring in our lineup, the taller spring option really isn't an option from us.

I removed the two smaller leaves and added 6* shims. I'm at 8.5" and installed back in June. I was debating on pulling the third leaf, but decided to give it some more time to settle before doing so, since you have to disassemble the pack. Plus my time is valuable and there's a part of me that doesn't want to have to make all these corrections to brand new "Stock Height" leaves.
The reason I went stock was to maintain factory angles and not add shims, drop brackets, drop pitman arms, adjustable drag link and trac bar, etc.

I hear you. You were very willing to work with what you had initially and take extra steps already. Don't need to do more. Take a look at Jim's comments above and you'll see that there is still an opt-out Plan-B. You can put your name on a set of new ones if you can wait that long. Or get your money back and try something else.
Unfortunately as an instant-results thing, you were never going to get more than a 1/2" immediate drop out of the bottom two leaves. To get the full 1.5" to 2" droop you do need to go to remove that 3rd leaf.

I think I'll wait until the investigating is done before taking more leaves out. Ultimately, running these probably makes the most sense. What it costs for shipping these back and shipping new ones out maybe WH could discuss some compensation.

You certainly would not be paying for return shipping for something that's not working as expected. If you'd ordered the wrong part, sure. But since you didn't do anything wrong and the springs are just not cooperating, it's not on you at all.
Returning was an option from the beginning of course (at least I think we discussed that option?), but isn't always the first thing people want to try while they're working on the vehicle.

Especially the extra time in dealing with modifying these springs. I'm glad I can do the work myself. Imagine how expensive it would be if you had to pay someone to do this stuff.

Definitely! Which is why we would normally not recommend having any of these experiments done at a shop. If you're having the work done and something doesn't fit, get a new one and get out!

Let's see how this rolls out. I can't guarantee you won't still need the shim obviously. There doesn't seem to be anything consistent about who needs them and who doesn't yet. Even when the springs are sitting at the correct height.

And we have not heard from anyone who's run them with three missing leaves to see if they needed the shims or not. The assumption is that they won't, but you can't always assume with Broncos as it turns out!

Paul

 

[mpboxer]

Returning was an option from the beginning of course (at least I think we discussed that option?), but isn't always the first thing people want to try while they're working on the vehicle.

We did, but the fear was they might have given the same results.

I put my name on the exchange list for when they come in. Thank you again Paul and WH for the great customer service!

 

[markw]

Same issue here, 2 1/2" higher in back. Have a TruHi9 so pinion angle isn't a problem but we are planning to remove leafs. I already coated the springs with epoxy/graphite and that was quite a job so I'm not sending them back! Mark

 

[bronconut73]

Paul, Jim, Johnny, Mark....WH in general...what a great company....we are really lucky in the eb community to have these guys around....not all automotive markets have such awesome vendors as Duff's, WH, BC, Bronco Hut, TBP, JBG, etc....
We truly are lucky.

Kudos to Paul and Jim for making this effort.

What an awesome gesture to the eb community at large not just to those effected by the stock spring issue.

 

[markw]

Bronconut you're spot on!

 

[OverBudgetBronco]

Glad I came across this thread. Just bought a set of those stock height springs for my son's 76 for Christmas. I guess we'll pull some leaves out before installing them. Maybe we can get it right on the first try.

 

[mpboxer]

Glad I came across this thread. Just bought a set of those stock height springs for my son's 76 for Christmas. I guess we'll pull some leaves out before installing them. Maybe we can get it right on the first try.

If it's even an issue. They might have fixed the new ones going out. FYI new option coming soon to WH. 1.5" lift front coils. I installed them at the end of this thread.

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3024227

 

[OverBudgetBronco]

If it's even an issue. They might have fixed the new ones going out. FYI new option coming soon to WH. 1.5" lift front coils. I installed them at the end of this thread.

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3024227

Looks like the last week in October Jim posted 10-12 weeks before the new ones are available, so I assume the ones I've had in my shop for a few weeks now are part of the old batch.

 

[mpboxer]

Looks like the last week in October Jim posted 10-12 weeks before the new ones are available, so I assume the ones I've had in my shop for a few weeks now are part of the old batch.

Yeah true!