• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

Roll cage design lessons learned?

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
8,844
I remember the car crash video comparing the '59 Chev and a late model Nova...

The solid '59 Chev impaled the test dummy...the crumple zone in the Nova saved the dummy.

I know, we have no way of crash testing our cages to see where the crumple zone is, etc...

I want a safe cage and need to add triangulation, that I do know... everything else is per Hozrs points...

However, I believe in the past 20 years cages that I've seen are a LOT better designed than prior... I think the 'net has helped people see designs and there are so many more quality Bronco places building cages now...
 
Last edited:

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,967
While not a 3MPH trail flop onto it's side, that was a fairly easy crash.

The ones that looks spectacular, takes several seconds, are the easy one as energy is dispersed over time. Like falling out of the sky, the freefall doesn't kill you, its that sudden stop when you hit the ground that does you in.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
All I'm saying , they can take over 100mph hour role with no harm where as I have seen photos of EB rolling on the freeway with 6 point cages that flatten along with the hard top and the cage pushes through the sheet metal.
I just think broncos should not be looked at for examples because 99,% of the ones I have seen are very poorly designed.
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
8,844
So what I just learned is that 99% of the cages I've seen in Broncos "are poorly designed" ?
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,272
Loc.
Upper SoKA
One point made that I disagree with as a hard and fast rule. The main hoop does not need to be vertical. The horizontal portion of the main hoop should be in a place where it best protects the driver and co-driver, but if the legs of the hoop need to be at a 30° angle from vertical to better tie into the vehicle's structure then that is how it should be built.
Case in point, if the main hoop in a Baja Bug cage is leaned forwards at the top then the bottom of it's legs can be tied into the rear torsion housing. Which is the most rigid part of the entire stock vehicle. If you insist on the vertical rule then all you have to tie the legs into is a single thickness piece of sheet metal or the middle of a horizontal tube - which violates the "No Mid-Span Junctions" rule. Clearly to lean the main hoop forward will require good triangulation for it to be strong, I contend that done right it will be a stronger structure than a vertical main hoop regardless of what the legs are tied to.

Regardless of orientation it does need to be triangulated. You have to quit thinking right angles (orthogonal, rectilinear, however you want to phrase it) and start thinking in triangles.

I see a LOT of what I'll call "Sport Cages" built with massive triangulation in the over-head portion of the cage and little none in the rest of it. Not only useless, but it makes no sense. I'll agree with 68Ford's statement, most cages that I've seen in EB's are better than nothing, but not by a lot.

IMSA is road-racing, not circle track racing.
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
So what I just learned is that 99% of the cages I've seen in Broncos "are poorly designed" ?

Yes, most even with six vertical legs have side support. Almost all roles in an EB would put side load on the cage and with only vertical legs it could very well just fold over. I have seen lots of crage that look like an overhead spider web will Sid support is no more than a simple 6 point cage, basically useless. The hard part is back seat access with a hard top. A simple X behind the front seat on a 6 point cage would likely make it 10 times stronger.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
One point made that I disagree with as a hard and fast rule. The main hoop does not need to be vertical. The horizontal portion of the main hoop should be in a place where it best protects the driver and co-driver, but if the legs of the hoop need to be at a 30° angle from vertical to better tie into the vehicle's structure then that is how it should be built.
Case in point, if the main hoop in a Baja Bug cage is leaned forwards at the top then the bottom of it's legs can be tied into the rear torsion housing. Which is the most rigid part of the entire stock vehicle. If you insist on the vertical rule then all you have to tie the legs into is a single thickness piece of sheet metal or the middle of a horizontal tube - which violates the "No Mid-Span Junctions" rule. Clearly to lean the main hoop forward will require good triangulation for it to be strong, I contend that done right it will be a stronger structure than a vertical main hoop regardless of what the legs are tied to.

Regardless of orientation it does need to be triangulated. You have to quit thinking right angles (orthogonal, rectilinear, however you want to phrase it) and start thinking in triangles.

I see a LOT of what I'll call "Sport Cages" built with massive triangulation in the over-head portion of the cage and little none in the rest of it. Not only useless, but it makes no sense. I'll agree with 68Ford's statement, most cages that I've seen in EB's are better than nothing, but not by a lot.

IMSA is road-racing, not circle track racing.


I totally agree. I think we need to delineate a few things for the sake of the group, especially the new guys.

I see a lot of people referencing race sanctioning body rules to drive cage design. This is not a bad place to start since there is no guidelines for street driven classic vehicles. However, we need to keep in mind that these rules were written with the hobbyist or fabricator in mind. The rules masked the engineering or empirical data involved and provide guidelines. Good for most folks, but that doesn't mean you can't "violate the rules" if you know what you're doing.

Where I take issue, is the data that is masked by the "rules" keeps people focused on the B-pillar hoop. While the B-pillar helps form the backbone of the cage in most cases, that is not where the action is at.

Most of our vehicles spend their life on the street. Some spend the majority of their time on the trail, but rarely on a race course. Therefore we should be looking at the street-rollover data and building from that. Thankfully the .gov helped us out by doing all the research and developing Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 216 (FMVSS 216) which governs Roof Crush Resistance of new vehicles. If you read the data behind this standard, you would see that the vast majority of high-speed rollovers impact the A-pillar at a prescribed angle, with 3-4 Gs of impact force. Look at the example photos below:

attachment.php

150549d1427116686-after-rollover-need-advaice-dsc_1475.jpg

images



My cage was designed around this reality. I also could not put X-bracing in the B-pillar hoop, which violates many race-cage rules, but those guys don't have passenger access issues. I was able to get around this by angling the C-pillar forward and creating what amounts to 2 "hoops" that form an "X" when viewed from the top. The cage is tied to the floor and the belt-line at 6x locations each. The A-pillars now get crush resistance from the opposite C-pillar connections. Overall the cage is solid yet doesn't conform to what most consider good practice.
attachment.php


So take all of our advice with a grain of salt and do your research, because ultimately you are responsible for your own safety.

;D
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
https://goo.gl/images/hfqudE

Hopefully that picture works. My point it with zeronsode to side support or triangulation sideways, if you roles on your side hard, the entire thing will colapes sideways. There is nothing stoping it.
 

jim3326

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
1,781
Loc.
Appleturkey
My cage is real similar to diggers rendering. The pic I first posted doesn't have the roof bars in yet. The double hoop is 2" .120w. DOM, A-pillar is 1.75 .095w.
 

Attachments

  • Brakelites.jpg
    Brakelites.jpg
    68.7 KB · Views: 142

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
Jim 3326, do not take this personal, but using yours as an exaple, imagine getting sideways on the freeway and rolling. 4500ish pound vehicle with all the side side loaded on the cage along the top. With no side to side support that entire top portion would just bend sideways and look like a parallelagram. Obviously this is a bad scenario that my never happen, but you never know.
The rear seat access is a huge issue, because like I said, an X behind the front seats would make most, not even mediocre EB cages, more than strong enough in my opinion.
 

JSmall

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
3,223
My cage is not finished and as soon as I can get the suspension seats that I want I will be adding floor bars between the A-C pillars, X brace behind the seats, and I will be running full harnesses. After all that is done and it's attached to the frame I will consider it done.

Is it a perfect design, will it protect me and my family in every situation...I'm sure it's not and I don't know.
 

Attachments

  • Capture.JPG
    Capture.JPG
    51.4 KB · Views: 79
  • Capture1.JPG
    Capture1.JPG
    43.7 KB · Views: 68
  • Capture2.JPG
    Capture2.JPG
    56 KB · Views: 74

jim3326

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
1,781
Loc.
Appleturkey
Yea, I get that. There is a small amount of side bracing from the harness bars for the front seats. If you have ever tried to bend DOM tube you know how tough it is. The hoops are also tied together at the bottom so it makes a full box. The A bars are also connected at the dash and roof. It may not be the best but it's as good as conditions will allow. I sleep well.;)
 

Rustytruck

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
10,875
While a very strong cage maybe a great Idea but some amount of bending of the cage will take allot of shock load out of the people going for the ride. The problem with most of our Broncos is the high center of gravity and a violent rollover at speed on the freeway. We don't just rollover and roll on the A pillar like a government safety test. We are likely to get punched and cartwheeled with a very hard initial landing.

Any cage of any design is better than nothing as long as the welds don't fail. It would probably protect you enough 99% of the time as long as you don't roll down a cliff or go for a 70 mph ride on the freeway. That decapitating folding windshield frame is just a plain problem that need to be dealt with.

You can build the best tube structure in the world but face it almost no one is wearing a full harness and a helmet to survive the accident the cage is going to protect you from.

Even the most minor cage has more survivability built in than a lap belt or shoulder harness has to protect you.
For the most part Your survivability in a Bronco is great because these are hobby trucks driven slow and not every day commuters.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
While a very strong cage maybe a great Idea but some amount of bending of the cage will take allot of shock load out of the people going for the ride. The problem with most of our Broncos is the high center of gravity and a violent rollover at speed on the freeway. We don't just rollover and roll on the A pillar like a government safety test. We are likely to get punched and cartwheeled with a very hard initial landing.

You should read the data, that is what FMVSS 216 is about. The data showed that whether is was a car, suv, truck etc, they all have similar dynamics in a high speed roll.

1) vehicle gets sideways
2) leading tires dig in
3) vehicle trips up (becomes 100% airborne)
4) vehicle slams down on opposing A-pillar. (not a gentle roll onto the A-pillar)

A Bronco's higher CoG doesn't change the dynamics much. It is still longer than it is wide and will tend to roll sideways, not end over end. The reason most vehicles roll sideways is there is resistance to motion in that direction because the tires can't roll that way.
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
8,844
I guess I don't go to Fab Ford's or the SuperCelebration and see literally hundreds of Broncos without diagonal support like you do... I'll be back in Moab in 2 weeks and see if 99% of the cages in Broncos that wheel are built like you're saying...I'll post up when there...be interesting to see...

Tony' s original question was to increase safety, etc....I'm sure Tony like myself and many others want a "safer" Bronco...

If we wanted absolute foolproof, 100% protection from all accidents including maybe a train hitting us broadside then we have a long ways to go...I'm sure there's 99% of us on the list that don't buy a car or truck based solely on US Govt safety crash ratings. A score of 1 out of 5 might influence our decision when buying a new car...some maybe not all..

I'd be willing to say that a Bronco would score a 1 out of 5 on these same 2018 standards...with that in mind making our Broncos safer is the original posters intent and still having a vehicle that Tony, Jaromy and others can put their kids in the back without having to load them in thru the rear lifgate...


Good discussion....
 
Last edited:

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
I guess I don't go to Fab Ford's or the SuperCelebration and see literally hundreds of Broncos without diagonal support like you do... I'll be back in Moab in 2 weeks and see if 99% of the cages in Broncos that wheel are built like you're saying...I'll post up when there...be interesting to see...

Tony' s original question was to increase safety, etc....I'm sure Tony like myself and many others want a "safer" Bronco...

If we wanted absolute foolproof, 100% protection from all accidents including maybe a train hitting us broadside then we have a long ways to go...I'm sure there's 99% of us on the list that don't buy a car or truck based solely on US Govt safety crash ratings. A score of 1 out of 5 might influence our decision when buying a new car...some maybe not all..

I'd be willing to say that a Bronco would score a 1 out of 5 on these same 2018 standards...with that in mind making our Broncos safer is the original posters intent and still having a vehicle that Tony, Jaromy and others can put their kids in the back without having to load them in thru the rear lifgate...


Good discussion....


Agreed, there is a certain amount of risk we accept. Motorcyclist do the same thing. I didn't let my kids ride in the Bronco until the cage was installed. There was something about getting squashed to the belt-line that didn't sit well with me.;D
 

68ford

Bronco Guru
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
2,710
Who here has access to solid works and can stress test a 6 point cage like practically all of them, zero lateral support. Then draw in an X behind the front seats and see how much stronger it is. That would end this argument all together.
 
Top