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Explore engine and trans swap performance question

John Griswold

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
210
Loc.
Medford, NJ
We have the 68 with the new Explorer efi 302 and 4r70w trans on the road. Motor totally rebuilt with aluminum heads. Supposedly low 300 hp. Trans totally rebuilt with upgraded clutches. 456 limited slip rears. 31" tires. Like most vehicles it spins the tires in reverse even when your not really trying. Very good torque in reverse. I believe the 4r70w has a lower 1st gear than reverse. However we are not getting the torque in first that we are getting in reverse. It's not terrible but not nearly like reverse. It is in first gear, we have been over that. What else could explain this? The tune, axle wrap, I don't know. Anyone have advice it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 

Speedrdr

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Nov 27, 2017
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Loc.
Paris, MS
My understanding is that regardless of the variety or type of transmission, reverse is pretty much ALWAYS lower ratio than 1st gear. My belief is that you NEVER need to go backward as fast as you go forward. That's my take on it.
Randy
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,949
Reverse will always light the tires off easier. Weight transfer is unloading the axle.

Reverse is 2.23:1 ratio. Halfway between 1st and 2nd, pretty typical. It isn't about speed, the higher ratio cuts torque to make reverse more drivable.

It is going to be really difficult to show that reverse has more torque than 1st gear.

I'm going to call it an illusion.
 

cofferjl

Newbie
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
25
I would also agree that what you are noticing is because of the unloaded rear end.
What exactly is it that you are trying to accomplish? Maybe with more information we would be able to offer more possible solutions.
 
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John Griswold

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May 3, 2010
Messages
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Loc.
Medford, NJ
We were just expecting it to accelerate from a stop better than it does. Forget who it was on this sight told my brother his stock explored swap with the same 456 gears and 31" tires almost wants to spin the tires when accelerating to merging into traffic. Was just expecting more low end I guess.
 
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John Griswold

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May 3, 2010
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When you say unloading that is weight being shifted off the rear axle when in reverse. Less weight on the axle less traction?
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
34,949
As the HP goes up for a given displacement the torque curve shifts up as well.
You may have more HP, but less low end torque. By the time you are making torque you are out of the stall stage of the convertor. Stock engine will have more torque while in the stall stage. So very likely a stock Explorer will pull harder for the first few feet until you catch your torque curve and pull away.

Broncos tend to hook up pretty good. Tall and short wheelbase will weight shift to the rear tires pretty good. You are probably already weight transferred and settled in before the bulk of your torque curve hits. I know my last one had a strong engine but wouldn't spin the tires off the line even with 4.88s. But a brake stand would boil them in 1st and get them roasting fast enough it would shift into 2nd and keep spinning them. Off the brakes and it would take off start to hook up, down shift back into first while spinning them. Only did that one, good tires are expensive.

Speaking of tires. Some tires (especially old ones) can really suck for traction. Back in college there was an Olds that was made into a school car (roof cut off, painted school colors) and we were always searching garage sales for old snow tires. They were tires that had sat forever and were hard as a rock, lots of tread, easy to spin and enough rubber to get a huge smoke cloud before blowing out. Fresh tires sucked for burnout because they were too sticky, fresh rubber.
 

73azbronco

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Messages
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Sorry but you don' have a Ford Raptor here, you have a 60's low horsepower truck. Unless you are willing to invest thousands. Not really sure what you want, just to spin tires? Buy smaller thinner street tires. I have 4.10 axles with 35;s and can barelly spin it with over 400hp and tq. I love it as is.
 

DirtDonk

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Bronco Guru
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Messages
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Forget who it was on this sight told my brother his stock explored swap with the same 456 gears and 31" tires almost wants to spin the tires when accelerating to merging into traffic.

That was me. And that's exactly what mine does.
Stock Explorer engine, with stock Explorer cam and exhaust manifolds and most smog intact.
Stock 4R70W and converter with no modifications.
The 31" tires are mud-terrain as well, which likely has something to do with it, if yours are more street friendly. As does the Detroit locker.

And as said, it's hard to accelerate to merge, because it wants to spin both tires and slide sideways. Fun under the right circumstances, a bit annoying in traffic, or on a quiet night int he neighborhood and all you hear is the chirping of tires instead of crickets.

I don't often accelerate heavily in reverse, so can't compare from your perspective on that unfortunately. But what they said about your torque curve could be part of it. A 300hp 302 is no slouch, but my 240hp has gobs of torque literally right off idle. That with the stock converter could be the only difference needed to make that variation in our experience.

What kind of exhaust setup do you have? Big duals by any chance?
Mine's a single 2.5" with Magnaflow muffler and catalytic converter.
Runs strong until 4,000 rpm and then starts to fade, then runs out of steam at 5,000 rpm. Where it sounds like yours would just keep pulling hard until you let off the pedal.

Paul
 

spap

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Did you switch the cam from the stock explorer cam
 

DirtDonk

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If you have the info, I think it would be great for the discussion if we knew just how your engine was built. What cam, exhaust, intake and all that in other words.

Thanks

Paul
 

BanditBronco

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
689
I don't think it is out of line to want your hot rod, classic vehicle, ice cream runner to be fun to drive and give up a little smoke. I do, from experience, think that doing that in a bronco is easier said then done. Who tuned your engine after the rebuild/mods?
 

Rustytruck

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
10,875
time to play with the timing curve is my guess. what converter are you using. I would have advanced the cam 4 degrees before closing the timing cover. bring in the power curve a little earlier. may want to put the truck on the dyno to see the power curve before throwing money at it. are you using the explorer computer and fuel injection system?
 

Timmy390

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Bronco Guru
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Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,626
Loc.
Conway, AR
We have the 68 with the new Explorer efi 302 and 4r70w trans on the road. Motor totally rebuilt with aluminum heads. Supposedly low 300 hp. Trans totally rebuilt with upgraded clutches. 456 limited slip rears. 31" tires. Like most vehicles it spins the tires in reverse even when your not really trying. Very good torque in reverse. I believe the 4r70w has a lower 1st gear than reverse. However we are not getting the torque in first that we are getting in reverse. It's not terrible but not nearly like reverse. It is in first gear, we have been over that. What else could explain this? The tune, axle wrap, I don't know. Anyone have advice it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

31's and 4.56's should be FUN ON A BUN. My tired 302 with 31's and 4.11 sure was. warmed over 351W and 4.11's = even more fun..... :)

Rebuild transmission with upgraded clutches catches my eye. Not an expert at all on autos but are you sure the trans is working correctly? I mean how was it built? Upgraded clutches meaning bigger? or more of them? How about line pressure? Trans could be slipping.....

Just thinking out of the box

Tim
 
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John Griswold

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May 3, 2010
Messages
210
Loc.
Medford, NJ
I'll get the cam specs next time I'm at the garage. It does have a 2500 stall converter chosen from rpm at max torque of motor which was agreed on by motor and trans guy. Trans is same amount of clutches just better quality as I understand it. It's running on the original estimated computer tune EFI Gary provided after we gave him the engine specs. I'll need to get back with him and discuss it. He was busy getting his Bronco ready for Colorado Super Cell when we got it on the road. I'm hoping the tune can be adjusted to get us where we were expecting. Again, we don't want to just smoke the tires off it but expected a bit more hole shot.
 
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John Griswold

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
210
Loc.
Medford, NJ
Exhaust is shorty headers with 2" dual. Manifold and throttle body are stock Explorer. I'll have to check cam specs. The torque converter is 2500 stall which was recommended by motor builder and trans guy based on rpms at max engine torque. The trans has same amount of clutches just better quality as I'm told. The computer tune is the original that EFI Gary flashed from engine information we provided him. Gary was busy getting his Bronco ready for Colorado Super Cell when we first got it on the road. I'm going to get back to him for his knowledge now that he may have some time. I got the obd2 dongle and forscan software and sent him some data that maybe he can make heads or tails of. I'm hoping adjusting the tune can get us what we were expecting. Again, we don't need to smoke the tires off it but sure would like a nice hole shot.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
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2500 stall is a half useful number. K-factor is where the performance lies in a torque convertor. Trouble is nobody classifies aftermarket torque convertors by the K-factor. And you generally have to dig to find the OEM K-factor for the different factory convertors.
 

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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Jul 31, 2001
Messages
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I'm not speaking for Garry, but a general tune will be a "safe tune" so you don't smoke things until he gets a chance to dial it in with you...

x2 on the TC specs. Also, I ran 4.10's with 35"s for over 10 yrs... bit harder to smoke 'em.
What was fun was 4.56 with stock 28" tires for 4 days with my 418... almost took 'em down to the cord... and I wasn't trying... did some County Road restriping... lol
 

DirtDonk

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Or as Jeremy Clarkson would have said, "printed some Number Eleven's did you?";)
Hard to keep the "blues and twos" away at that point. (referencing the blue lights and 2-tone sirens of the English police cars)

Paul
 

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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Yeah!! :)

Over the decades (& once last month) I've learned that doing something "fun" like that in a Bronco means you do it below 25mph... ;)
 
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