Custom cam grind for those interested...

[b4opec]

Hi, I posted this on corral.net, which is where I read a bunch on this cam grinder. In fact, someone on this site recommended this cam guru, Jay Allen, to me. I am posting this because anyone with a bronco should be clued into the amazing prospect of a custom cam grind:

I have been running a fuel injection conversion on an early Bronco for awhile, and was looking for something more out of my setup (347 w/ross 10.5 pistons, twisted wedge heads, gt40 intake, etc). I read mustang sites regularly for info even though I’m not technically a mustang guy. Similar horse though. I’ve tried a few cams, most recently a Trick Flow Stage I. Before anyone writes me off as a torque loving rock crawler, my Bronco sees street driving 99% of the time. That is the main reason I’m posting this piece.

I couldn’t figure out what the Bronco needed- I tried short duration cams, long duration cams and those in between. I couldn’t figure out what would make my machine really grunt. The trick flow cam I was last using was pretty good, but afterall, I’m lugging a truck around which really challenges the aerodynamics. When I converted to injection, I wasn’t really impressed. It was a B-303 cam. I felt like I took a step backward from my carb config. It just didn’t pull or give a hint of power. The trick flow cam was a bit better, but still, probably not inline with my carb setup. It was disappointing for me- I felt like I might have given up too much by going injection.

So I researched and read, asked questions on message boards, and the folks on classicbroncos.com felt I needed to have a custom cam ground. So I kept on reading, taking notes. I read several posts on a fellow in Michigan by the name of Jay Allen, of Camshaft Innovations. I contacted Jay and filled out his multi page info sheet on my Bronco. It seemed that a lot of the info that was being asked did not apply to my situation-I’m a ‘special situation’ not a ¼ miler.

After filling out the tech sheet, he contacted me and felt he had a cam solution. I won’t attempt to recreate Jay’s comments to me, for it was intensely detailed and I don’t want to misquote him. Regardless, his proposition was a shorter duration cam with higher lift (almost .600). Rapid ramp rates and shorter duration to get the air/fuel charge in without sacrificing idle and overall drivability. At first, I was a bit miffed but Jay assured me this would be ‘the cam’. It took several weeks for the cam to be ground, and I waited and wondered. I got the cam, put everything together this weekend and went for a spin. UNREAL. I don’t think there’s one mainstream cam manufacturer out there that can deliver the performance I got out of this cam. It truly blew my mind.

Specifically: I run a toploader 4 speed, with the overdrive 4th. So, it’s basically a 3 speed. This limits my options and how I can utilize the overall powercurve of the motor. In the past, I’ had a good run in 1st, shift to 2nd lugs a touch then gets rolling, and shifting into 3rd (1:1 drive ratio) was a shock to the motor. It would lug until the tach hit about 2500, then get rolling from there. Jay’s cam: rips like a pitbull in 1st, pulls like a mother in 2nd, and continues to pull in 3rd, which is unreal for my setup. It has that “go” on tap power that you aim for, but I couldn’t figure out how to get there before.

I briefly ran a B&M supercharger and though that setup was stout, it wasn’t useable everyday power. This is. It is truly unbelievable.

If you’re looking for the ‘ultimate’ cam, you might consider giving Jay a ring. I felt like I might be wasting his time with my situation, but he was super nice and willing to help. What I got was a cam that fulfilled my expectations—exceeded them-and it came by way of research from the Mustang racing crowd.

I am posting this response on several well-traveled mustang sites because I feel Jay’s cams are worthy of your consideration if you’re in the market f

 

[2badrotties]

Jay is not new to Fords or what makes and engine work. I remember him from my racing days and that was back more than ten years ago. He was almost a step ahead of some people way back then. It is always nice to buy a part and find real improvement, not just the same old thing. Enjoy your new found power !

 

[NicksTrix]

good deal, glad it worked out for you. sounds like a nice set up.
curious what the package cost ya? did it include lifters?

 

[rustbucket]

So how does one contact Jay? Does he have a web site?

 

[b4opec]

Jay Allen - 734.730.2574
jayallen@comcast.net

www.camshaftinnovations.com

Prices are listed on his website but all in expect to spend around $400, and it's worth every penny

 

[bsaunder]

With our beasts - I think the only way to really bring them to life is with a custom grind, there is nothing off the shelf that is made for our use (close, but not spot on).

Another option is Ed Curtis at FTI http://www.flowtechinduction.com/index.htm

He's mainly a die hard blue oval fan, but it looks like he's been branching out from his website. I've got a custom cam from him and will hopefully be able to give a driving impression in a couple weeks. Same deal with the interview - he wanted to know about 2 pages of info about my rig and driving habits/wants.

 

[broncnaz]

While a custom grind will get you exactly what you want just contacting a cam company can produce the same results they will tell you either they have a regular grind that will suit your needs or you need a custom ground one. it really boils down to what you have and what you want from it and everyone is different. ie driving, style, engine, gearing ect. sometimes off the shelf cams are exactly what some people need.
b4opec whats the specs on your custom cam? while I'm sure Jay is a great guy and is good at what he does dont discount the major cam companies they all do the exact same thing in the end. I'm surer anyone of them could have produced the exact same cam given your spec's

 

[bsaunder]

I'm not too sure about the major cam companies being able to do that - make the same custom cam that is. If they were given the specs, yes -but it's getting the specs correct that is the challange.

I called comp cams and crane before calling FTI and both of them were really only going to give me a semi-custom cam.
The only info they wanted was engine type, vehicle weight, stall speed (if you run Auto), rear axle gearing, wanted rpm range, carb or EFI.

Ed on the other had also wanted: desired idle speed, full specs on the engine (compression ratio, stroke, bore, rings, heads (manufacturer, material, mods,etc), intake (manuf, material, mods, etc), pistons (m,m,m,etc), environment I'll be using it in, level of maintanance, my want to tinker or not, which computer I was using, MAF info, TB info, first gear ratio, final drive ratio, 4 low ratio, tire size, altitude normally run at, temperature ranges operated at, etc. We exchanged several multipage emails..

On first contact to the major manuf and ED I told them I wanted a roller cam that would have a good loppy idle and be completely smooth by 1200rpm where I wanted my torque at or close to peak and have the hp coming on strong there with it peaking ~5500-6000rpm with the HP and TQ not dropping off until after 6500rpm all in a ~4200lb vehicle. And I wanted >400hp and Tq on low grade gas.

Comp cams and Crane said it couldn't be done - Ed said, something along the lines of "no problem. That's a good place to start, let's get the details ironed out."

 

[broncnaz]

Well as long as you got what you wanted but I think you would be surprised at your actual torque and HP curves as they are probably not exactly where you think they are. Any cam company out there can grind a cam to do what you asked but the actual curve is pretty much a given. Your basic wants sounds like most RV cams at least the ones on the bigger side of the house. not only that Ed probably left some details out I would still like to see the specs on this cam. Remember stroker motors will make more lowend torque from the get go so and with the larger displacement a bigger cam cam be used. And dont for get part of a roller cams charateristics is that you can ramp them up quicker at a higher lift for less time and get the same or better results than a long duration lower lift cam. Most people that call any company for a custom cam get pretty much what they want. But as far as grinding a camshaft that has torque peak at 1200 rpm and HP peaking at 5500-6000 rpm thats what cant be done TQ and HP follow each other usually within 1500 rpm most less. I can guess pretty much what they did was give you a cam that has a pretty flat torque curve and peaks probalby around 3500 rpm with the HP peaking around 5000 rpm. Throw that thing on a dyno and let us know.

 

[bsaunder]

it was on an engine dyno and was very close to what I wanted - torque was very steep to ~1500rpm, and then mostly leveled off (slight climb) to ~3000rpm and then very very minor climb from there to on. Hp was pretty steep at 1200 and started leveling off ~5200 with another leveling at ~5700 rpm. Not sure where they dropped off as the pull was stopped at 6000rpm. At 600-900rpm it had a mean lope to it too.
(**disclaimer - rpm levels are from memory, the pull was over a year ago and I've lost my build sheet with the pull charts on it. The guy that built my engine did two pulls as he didn't believe how early my torque curve was.)

Hopefully I'll find my build sheet (I need it anyways as it has my spark gap and valve spring preload values on it) as I'm re-setting up my office for more accurate numbers, but even then I won't post the cam numbers though - was part of the agreement on buying it. Testing was also done with a custom chip matched to all the components.

From what I've read, going with Jay Allen as b4opec did would be just as good of an experience.

It's kinda like the old joke:
An engineer is hired to fix a problem with a machine. At the end he puts an x with chalk on the part that needs replacing and gives them a bill for $500,000. When asked for an itemized bill he give them - $1 piece of chalk, $499,999 Knowing where to put the x.

 

[broncnaz]

looks like I was in the ballpark with my figures.

 

[bsaunder]

looks like I was in the ballpark with my figures.

yea, pretty close - If I remember the torque ~1500 was with-in 50ft-lbs of the peak, so it met my wants well. I have compared the cam#s to many OTS cams and while some may have close to the same lift, the duration and timing was different - or duration near the same, but lift and timing off, etc.

The other part that I got from Ed; was the correct valve springs for the cam, massaged edelbrock 5.8 lower and rpm upper intakes, and he worked with me and Canfield for the best head geometry and flow numbers to match the whole system, and also consulted on the custom chip. All with the cam price below what both comp and crane quoted me (comp actually did grind it for Ed, and do for ~90% of the cams out there last I checked), the intakes ~$75 more than summit, and the rest for free. This was all two years ago, so I have no idea on his prices now or if he will do the consulting as he did with me.

Looking at Jay's website, I'd venture to say he could offer the same service I got from Ed.

for a "standard" build engine that is close to a stock build, I wouldn't argue that an OTS cam or slightly modified version would work; but for those of us with "non-standard" builds, OTS only kinda works. Getting a kick-butt cam and personal customer service is what you get from Ed or Jay - everytime I've called comp or crane they acted like I was wasting their time trying to get a cam for my specific engine and wants rather than fitting in a cookie cutter mold.

 

[2badrotties]

I know a LITTLE about cams and cam grinders. I also know a LITTLE about going fast. During my racing days I bought and tried a lot of cams from Hydraulic rollers to solid rollers and anywhere from .500 lift to .750 lift . If you want the best from a regular camshaft company call Crower. There are not a lot of cam companies out there that the owner will get on the phone with you. Dave Crower has done that for me. I have tried Comp Cams and believe me when I tell you this... if you call them every day for a week and give them the same specs you will get five different answers ( try it ! ). I have also dealt with Chet Herbert Cams in California and have had better results with them and their " cheap " cams then I have had with Comp Cams. I hear a lot about Ed Curtis because he is from here in the Northeast. I know a few guys who buy from him. I know a few guys who are still trying to run as fast as I did ten years ago ;D . There has been so much research and development done with small block Fords the past few years it is pretty common knowledge what works and what works better. If you want to thank anyone for that , thank all the cylinder head manufacturers. They have done the research. There are a number of people out there who sell a good product and who will bend over backwards for you. It is great to hear the good and bad about the people who sell parts. There are hundreds of people selling parts and forums like this really help people looking to buy them. Back in the day it was all trial and error. Shoot... I remember the first hydraulic roller I ever bought . I had to send Crower a cam so they could re-grind it, blanks were not even available back then ;D . Damn I'm getting old

 

[b4opec]

While a custom grind will get you exactly what you want just contacting a cam company can produce the same results they will tell you either they have a regular grind that will suit your needs or you need a custom ground one. it really boils down to what you have and what you want from it and everyone is different. ie driving, style, engine, gearing ect. sometimes off the shelf cams are exactly what some people need.
b4opec whats the specs on your custom cam? while I'm sure Jay is a great guy and is good at what he does dont discount the major cam companies they all do the exact same thing in the end. I'm surer anyone of them could have produced the exact same cam given your spec's

I've been more or less a Chevy guy for the last 15 years, as those were (and still are) the motors in our race boats. I tried all sorts of cams for those motors, and figured out through trial and error what worked and what worked well. One experience I had that I'll never forget was a comp cam roller that I put in a small block- decent lift, good duration. First time out, it was running pretty good, but the lobe overlap was wide and it created a vacuum effect and sucked water from the wet exhaust back into the combustion chamber when you pulled off the gas. Pop goes the weasel, bent a connecting rod, there goes the motor. Had a whopping 40 minutes on that motor and had to start all over again. Comp cams was happy to solve my problem by regrinding a cam with the right lobe overlap. Problem solved BUT it cost me. Severely. Now I know that's not a problem with our cars, but it's the same kinda thing. When you deal with an independent like Jay Allen, or Ed Curtis, you're tapping into their personal bank of experience. It's really invaluable.

So there in lies the connundrum- if you knew how you wanted your cam ground from the get-go, you would call xyz cam grinder and tell them to grind it. But is that something you know? After talking to Jay Allen, I realized how much I was missing. These cam guys don't just adjust lift and durations, they manipulate the surface area of the lobe to produce a completely different cam. Something that can't be bought off the shelf. It's also a science I don't feel comfortable debating- it's a black magic of sorts. Don't laugh!

broncnaz: "I'm surer anyone of them could have produced the exact same cam given your spec's" this is entirely true but you have to know what the specs are first. I don't know if I could describe in my original post just how different these custom cam grinds are. I was 1st running a trick flow stage I- don't quote me but it was like 224/232 duration and .540/.560 lift. I consulted with trick flow prior to that purchase and they were pretty confident I'd be impressed. It wasn't anything to write home about. I know the duration was aggressive but I felt the lift was too aggresssive first and foremost. Then I consult with Jay, and he comes up with a shorter duration cam, good, but higher lift! Are you kidding?? I was stumped.

I *think* that a lot of this different approach to cam grinding is an offshoot from the chevy ls series crowd. High lift with shorter durations. It's pretty amazing stuff. You give up none of the drivability and gain all the performance. This truck runs like a bulldog. Heck I had a b&m blower on the bronco last year this is way more fun. The blower was cumbersome. I don't know how to explain. If I rated on a fun scale, the trick flow I on the injected motor was a 5 (and that's mostly cause the bronco itself is so fun!), the b&m blower was a 7.5 and the Jay Allen cam, injected motor is near a 10.

Lastly, it was mentioned that a decent off the shelf rv cam could get you in the ballpark for what a custom cam grinder could do. Absolutely untrue. The numbers don't lie. This is *hardly* an rv cam.

Here are the specs for the cam Jay ground, from an email he sent (The original lift he quoted was .605- you read that right. The revised lift below isn't too far off that):

"I recieved your cam earlier today. I completed the Cam Dr just a few
minutes ago. I have NOT made up your camcard as of yet, but here ARE
the EXACT specs:

218.65/224.49 at .050 (intake/exhaust)
The lift with a 1.6/1.6 rocker will be .581/575.
The LSA is 114.075. I do not know the IC yet. I haven't gotten that far.

I made a running change to the lift so I could get the duration numbers
in other areas than .050 where I wanted them. In another words, the
original .378 lobe lift just would have been not right at
.200-.225-.250-.275. Thus I had to make changes. This is part of the REAL custom cam game"

 

[slcpunk]

I second the crower comment.

when I was building my gimp gm 2.8 I needed a cam that would work with my computer and 10.5:1 cr... long story short they were very helpful if I was oing to buy an off the shelf cam I would gladly call crower again, but the custom cams sound really good.

mmm power...isnt it what makes the old school iron v8s so sweet...oh ya and the sound

 

[broncnaz]

While I'm sure you have gotten the right cam some of these companies are not in 4x4 business TFS for instance they sold you a cam that was close to your description of what they had and what you wanted but by no means correct. I'm sure the custom cam guys know there stuff I dont doubt it in the least and may know peoples needs a little better than some of the big companies but with your specs there are some off the shelf cams with almost the exact some numbers all round. Most people tend to over cam there engines which seems to be part of the case with your previous cams. I'm sure through your experiance you've learned a lot about what works and doesnt work and I agree that a custom cam is probalbly a better bet. It just goes to show that it takes some research and trial and error to come up with the combo that your happy with. Thanks for posting this has been a good discussion and hopefully will help some people out.