3G vs. 4G alternator upgrade

[KeithKinPhx]

I'm really confused. Which alternator upgrade do I need (want)?

I have a stock alternator in my 68 with 289. I am adding Vintage Air, a real stereo system and power windows. So I need to upgrade from 60amps.

Also I am trying to declutter the engine bay so if I can get rid of the voltage regulator or starter solenoid that would be a bonus. Not sure what to believe about the 1 wire alternators.

Thanks in advance
Keith

 

[toddz69]

You'll want the 3G. The 4G is part of the Explorer front dress and if you want to use it, you'll need to swap the entire front dress on your engine.

Todd Z.

 

[Steve83]

This shows how to wire a 3G, remove the VR, and swap to a voltmeter:



You must keep the starter relay:

 

[KeithKinPhx]

This shows how to wire a 3G, remove the VR, and swap to a voltmeter:

You must keep the starter relay:

Thanks Steve.

To be clear I can ditch the voltage regulator on the inner passenger fender and reroute my wires along the top of engine in the same loom with the the coil and temp sensor wires.

I probably can hide the starter solenoid under the battery tray near the frame. I'll route the new 6awg alt to battery wire along the frame to the battery terminal on the starter solenoid which of course connects to the battery itself. I will then run the starter cable along frame to the starter.

At least this will get all those wires down and out of sight. I will put heat shield sleeve on the alt and starter wires since they will be near the headers for safety sake.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks so much for the help.
Keith

 

[KeithKinPhx]

I can save a fruitless trip to the junk yard for $46. With this 3G OEM harness from eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/i/362037523198

It is for the 2003 Expedition and includes the fuse as recommended in the Supermotors write up.

 

[DirtDonk]

...To be clear I can ditch the voltage regulator on the inner passenger fender and reroute my wires along the top of engine in the same loom with the the coil and temp sensor wires.

Yes. No alternator that is in normal use needs two separate voltage regulators. And your new alternator is "internally regulated" which means it's got some gizmo that does the same thing inside it's case. Job done...

Remember with the starter relay hidden like that, it'll look really clean, but any and all maintenance or fiddling will require actually removing the battery before you can make even the most basic changes.

Just something to think about. Maybe it's not a big deal if you don't ever have to work on it.

Paul

 

[ObscureMachine]

Remember with the starter relay hidden like that, it'll look really clean, but any and all maintenance or fiddling will require actually removing the battery before you can make even the most basic changes.

I haven't moved my starter relay yet, but this is why I have a BlueSeas fuse block hidden away, so anything that could connect to the starter relay actually connects elsewhere. Definitely helps declutter the engine compartment.

Is this what you're talking about Paul?

 

[Boss Hugg]

If you change the starter to one from, say, a 96 f150 or 5.0 explorer, it has the relay built in and you can get rid of the one on the fender. Just takes a little more rewiring.

 

[DirtDonk]

I haven't moved my starter relay yet, but this is why I have a BlueSeas fuse block hidden away, so anything that could connect to the starter relay actually connects elsewhere. Definitely helps declutter the engine compartment.
Is this what you're talking about Paul?

Yes and no. Depends on where you mount the new aux fuse panel. Where did you put yours to keep things clean?
But yes, it does get rid of that unsightly mess at the relay. Just need room for the new component.

If you change the starter to one from, say, a 96 f150 or 5.0 explorer, it has the relay built in and you can get rid of the one on the fender. Just takes a little more rewiring.

One possibility, but I would not do that. You still need the auxiliary power point, or you'll have all of the same wires cluttering up down there by the starter in the heat and oil and junk.
But more importantly the true solenoid that's on the back of that starter takes more juice to activate it than a standard Ford starter relay does, and people who've wired it like that have reported early failures of their ignition switches. Especially older ones, and newer cheap ones.

You also have the greater probability that you will get starter run-on when you release the key. It's not a universal issue, but so many people have had it happen when they eliminated the fender mounted relay that it's probably not worth the potential hassle.

Even Ford retained the old fender-mounted relay setup after switching to the new PMGR starters in the late '80's or whenever it was. Not sure about the modern cars and trucks, but they kept that scenario right up to the '01 Explorers.
The only change was the use of the newer design "pancake" style relay. Where the contact studs are vertical sticking out the top of the relay body and are typically longer too, to hold more wires.
The Explorer relay connectors are pretty cool too, and a worthwhile grab from the junkyards sometimes.

Paul

 

[Boss Hugg]

You still need the auxiliary power point, or you'll have all of the same wires cluttering up down there by the starter in the heat and oil and junk.

But more importantly the true solenoid that's on the back of that starter takes more juice to activate it than a standard Ford starter relay does, and people who've wired it like that have reported early failures of their ignition switches. Paul

The starter wire from the switch in my universal harness did go bad about 2 years after I rewired and did away with the relay. I even changed the switch, but to no avail. So when I finally ran a new wire, you better believe it was a BIG wire. And I also have a 125 Amp breaker on the firewall where all those connections happen.

 

[Rustytruck]

I use the smaller case 90 amp 3G so I can run a single v belt and don't have to deal with the squealing belt issue. The smaller case 3G has the 4 hole pattern cooling holes by the pulley. You will need a GM alternator pulley to get proper thread hold on the pulley nut.

 

[Steve83]

If you change the starter to one from, say, a 96 f150 or 5.0 explorer, it has the relay built in and you can get rid of the one on the fender.

NO. Not even the most-modern ignition switch is rated to directly control the starter solenoid. Certainly not the antique eB ig.sw., which is already on the verge of being overloaded. If you don't want to use a fender-mount starter relay, use a Bosch/ISO/Tyco cube relay; AND a new binding post for all the other heavy wires.

But that would be a big waste of time, money, & effort, and it would take up more space than just using a stock-type starter relay.

The idea of "hiding" something in the engine bay doesn't make sense. The purpose of opening the hood is to access things for service. The purpose of the hood is to hide those things. Don't make maintenance & repairs extra-difficult by putting things under the hood AND under other things.

 

[DirtDonk]

I agree about the reasons for using one, but not the reason for hiding. People looking to hide stuff like this are doing so for their aesthetic sense. Not for function.
I don't think I'd hide the starter relay either, but I might move it over a bit just to make it less visible if I was cleaning up an engine compartment to make it look better to me.
But for the reasons you stated I would certainly want to keep it handy for fiddling about.

These days, a common purpose for some people opening their hood is not to work on it, but to show it off at a show or gathering or restaurant parking lot. The oohs and ahhs that any custom or hot-rod gets have nothing to do with how easy it looks to maintain. But everything to do with personal taste. I'd hate to work on most of the best custom cars, precisely because they're tidy and clean with most of the stuff I need cleverly hidden from sight.
But they sure do look cool!

Paul

 

[Steve83]

Yes, many people do things that don't make sense. But I don't think that's why this forum exists. I think it's for people who want their vehicles to work right, which is always my goal.

If I want something to look at, I'll paint a picture of a vehicle with no starter relay. But any vehicle I want to drive will have one that's easy to maintain.

 

[chrlsful]

& some want a balance. I never used my EB for rec, all ways wrk (a woods income). In retirement a lill to the WoW factor might B nice. Surely not "all the way" tho.

Thnx for the help'n ideas!

 

[Steve83]

It's been 5 years. We've moved on.

 

[chrlsful]

Thnx for the help'n ideas "83".
gettin a diode now. All's a new adventure for me...
-0- automot. ele knowledge. House? plenty to wire up (still far from expert)~

 

[hossbronco]

There a lot of talk above about cleaning up the wiring around the starter solenoid and form vs function. Is there any reason not to run the wiring through the outer fender with a steel covering? Is it not protected enough from the elements for someone who wheels? I’m not overly concerned about form, but it doesn’t hurt.

 

[DirtDonk]

I’ve talked about doing just exactly that quite often. So from my standpoint, I can’t see anything wrong with doing it. The only issue is, as you said, protecting the wires. But that should be relatively easy and straightforward.

A lot of wires are run out in the open along the frame rails, so even though wheel wells do tend to get beat up even more, I don’t see protecting them from debris flying around is all that hard. Extra effort for sure, but not that hard ultimately.

 

[tampabronco]

I use the smaller case 90 amp 3G so I can run a single v belt and don't have to deal with the squealing belt issue. The smaller case 3G has the 4 hole pattern cooling holes by the pulley. You will need a GM alternator pulley to get proper thread hold on the pulley nut.

Just upgraded to a small case 3G. I used a 92 ford Aerostar van 95 amp. Fit perfectly and used the used a V belt pulley from old alternator with no squealing. I also recommend the painless wiring harness