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Rear air bags / air shocks or ????

TonyPDX

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Feb 3, 2004
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So, i have been running my 3.5" lift rear springs for 10 years or so and just lived with the fact it was a little high in the rear in the summer with the top off but sagged in the winter with the hard top on and a little gear in the back. But, now that I built a rear bumper with tire rack, high lift, shovel, Pulaski and jerry can mount it really sags. I just got back from dragging my bumper down the Rubicon..... I tow my boat once and a while with it also.

So, what are you guys doing that run both lightly loaded and heavily loaded?

I was thinking of mounting helper air bags in front of the axle on the springs or one air bag on the traction bar that is mounted to the top of the pumpkin.

I don't want to loose suspension travel.
 

DirtDonk

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That's a tough call Tony. If it was a street driver only, like so many are, it'd be an easier solution. But for a wheeling rig, keeping full versatility gets more complicated.

I'd say the air shocks are out just from the wheel travel standpoint. Not that this type of shock necessarily has less travel available, but I'd worry about damaging the bladder through all the cycles. Might last awhile, might not.

Air bags could work, but the custom bracketry needed to have the best of both worlds might be tricky. That, and the fact that you'd want them in use when wheeling to carry your extra load, and you'd lose some of that wheel travel you want to keep.

Sounds counter-intuitive, but I might consider using a lift block at this point. Or a long add-a-leaf that would not kill the ride.
Or lower the front if you can afford to lose some height there.
Or have a local spring shop de-arch them and add a leaf for extra capacity.

What brand are they by the way? Just curious more than anything else.
Did they sit higher when new? Or were they at least fitting into a narrower height when new?

Thanks

Paul
 
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TonyPDX

TonyPDX

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Paul thanks for the response.
I am not sure on the brand as I bought them so long ago but I seem to recall they were made by "National". I think I bought them as a 10 leaf pack but quickly added the 11th leaf as it sat to low in the back with the hard top on. I think they have sagged a little over the years... Blocks certainly would be easy but they are not really what I am looking for.

A properly shaped add-a-leaf might do the trick...

Do you know it the 5.5" springs are the same rate as the 3.5" springs?
 

welndmn

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Joined
Nov 12, 2001
Messages
2,112
If you look at some of the Baja chase trucks they run air bags but instead of having a top secured mount, they use a cup. That still gives you the suspension travel you need.
 

Rustytruck

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Feb 24, 2002
Messages
10,875
I would probably add the short overload spring that Ford used on the 4900 spring package if you can find a set. Its thick will add some height on its own. It doesn't contact the spring pack or effect ride until heavily loaded then it acts like belts and suspenders keeping your ass end up. You could always re-arch your current springs. Go talk to a spring shop. It will help if you get your rig weighed. fully loaded, normal run weight and front and rear weighed separately. That will give them good numbers to work with. You probably lost more height on the Rubicon with the reduction of air pressure and its greater effect on the rear than the front due to the gear you have to carry.
 

blubuckaroo

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Ridgefield WA
Back when I had the old add-a-leaf set-up, I could hookup the trailer without much sag. It just rode like it had no springs.
Now with my 11 leaf (National) springs, the car squats with the trailer's tongue weight. Since I wanted the stance correct all the time, I installed a set of Gabriel Hi-Jacker air shocks. Not my first choice for shocks, but they ride nice and give me the adjustment I need.
 
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TonyPDX

TonyPDX

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So thanks to Welndmn's suggestion I did some Google'n and found Carli's suspensions Long travel air bags for desert runners. I then called them to discuss my application and they steered me to Daystar's air bag cradle as their air bags don't have enough travel. http://www.daystarweb.com/productdetail.php?productID=1232
This seems like it might be a great solution for my application allowing me to adjust the suspension for my varied loads.

Pair the daystar cradles with a AirLift Load Lifter 5000 kit or a Firestone Ride-rite kit. https://www.airliftcompany.com/shop/57215/

Thoughts?
 

DirtDonk

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...I bought them so long ago but I seem to recall they were made by "National".

Remember them well. They certainly made thick 9, 10 and 11 leaf packs a household name in the Bronco world back when. I think they're still in business as well, and would probably be considered one of those "local spring manufacturers" that I was talking about. If you lived in the So Cal/San Diego area anyway.
I don't read the magazines as regularly as I used to (no time!) but maybe their little spring ad is still there?


Do you know it the 5.5" springs are the same rate as the 3.5" springs?

I don't know for a fact, but it's a reasonable assumption that they would be at least slightly higher rates. At the very least, with the higher arch they have a higher initial spring rate. Not sure about overall rate/capacity though.

Paul
 

slappywhite

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Feb 12, 2018
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Hello I recently purchased an early for bronco and I absolutely hate the way it drives. Improvements are underway to the steering etc but I want a more modern ride. It’s an automatic 302 with a 3” lift, no body lift. It’s for road use only and will never off road and never tow anything. Would an airbag system improve the ride and if so is there a kit to suit or something that can be modified?

Thanks.
 

bronconut73

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
9,916
Just get on the phone with Duffs.

Today's variable rate springs are so soft you will really be able to feel a difference.
Match those up with Duff or Bilsteins and your golden, no air ride needed Buddy.


Welcome to CB.
Best site in the universe.
 

DirtDonk

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On top of what 73 said though, you're never going to get a modern ride. Sorry.
The body is not tight enough, the frame not designed with modern feeling in mind (though it is relatively stiff for it's vintage) and every door, tailgate, liftgate and bolted body panel flexes, creaks and groans, and you have too much gear noise, road noise, tire noise, engine noise, to get that nice modern feel. Not to mention exhaust fumes!

Ok, so I hate saying "never" and there are many ways to improve all of those things I mentioned. So you can get it much closer to modern anyway. It's just a matter of getting after what's needed.
Insulation, proper steering geometry, good shocks, softer springs, etc.

Sounds like you're already after the steering, and that's critical. What are you planning for that? Is it being done by an expert in Ford steering? Or at least someone who's researched the requirements for an EB to steer well?
You doing the work yourself, or having someone else do it?

Can you show us what you have now for a suspension? Are the rear leaves upgraded or original? Front coils variable rate or linear? Shock brand and model?
And what about tire size and load range? Tires are a HUGE part of the quality of your ride. A 17" Load Range-E tire is not your friend here.

The good news is that with you simply having to figure out what's going to be best on the street is much easier to tackle than trying to make it a jack-of-all-trades to do hardcore off-roading and take the family to the lake or ice cream store downtown on the weekends.
Much easier to dial in I would think.

Good luck with it all. Keep us informed on what you do and how you end up liking, or disliking particular changes.
And welcome to classic too!

Hope it all works out to your satisfaction. Fun times rolling around in an EB.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Some more stuff for you. Rubber body bushings for one. I couldn't tell the difference when I put on poly, but my rubber ones were pretty tired, so that might have had a perception effect.
But rubber should at least in theory give you better road noise isolation.
Same for leaf spring bushings.
And if you can find a way to put rubber or poly insulators at the top and/or bottom of the coil springs, like most cars had back in the day, that could help as well.

Is the body coming off the frame for paint? Whether it is or not (just easier if it is) I would seriously consider products like Lizzard Skin sound and heat barrier spray on coatings. Whether inside or out (I prefer out, but either works) it will go a long way towards keeping the interior tolerable in winter or summer.
You didn't say where you lived, but are you planning on adding A/C to the rig? If so, it will thank you (and so will your family and friends) if you add plenty of sound and heat insulation.
The spray stuff is great because you can get it where you don't normally get the stick-on stuff. Up inside the wheel wells, all up and under the firewall and cowl area and the doors. Every nook and cranny.
We have our Racket Jacket system: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/category/Bronco_Carpet which works very well. But adding a Lizzard Skin type spray coating can only make everything better. Heck, even just carpet and jute backing is a huge improvement over bare floors or mats, but as in the case with electrical grounding on these rigs, more is better!

Headers are great for performance, but cast-iron exhaust manifolds are just quieter.

Seal up the body wherever you see a hole. Even if it's in an out of the way area, it lets in noise. Renew the window wetherstripping will often (more often than not?) quiet things down as well.
Insulate the crap out of a hard top if that's what you're using.

Yeah, I know I'm concentrating on NVH rather than handling like you were asking about. But I've found that the noise and heat inside the cabin of an EB will go a LONG way towards driver happiness. Just feels better inside and lets you concentrate on driving.
Not trying to overlook the more important aspects of handling and braking of course. Just adding to the solutions.

Sorry if you're a long time old-car guy and knew all that stuff already. But at your first post we don't know all that so I'm just throwing out what might be overlooked if you're not familiar.

Good luck.

Paul
 
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TonyPDX

TonyPDX

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"I absolutely hate the way it drives. Improvements are underway to the steering etc but I want a more modern ride." "It’s for road use only and will never off road and never tow anything." Would an airbag system improve the ride and if so is there a kit to suit or something that can be modified?

Thanks.

You mention you hate the way it "drives" and want a more modern "ride". These are somewhat separate issues, can you be more specific?

Paul has given you some good general feedback but we may be able to help more if we know more about the issues you are trying to address.

Modern lift kits from the Bronco vendors are much better than they were even 15 years ago so if you have old style sprigs and shocks, or rusted up spring bolts that don't move freely they can ride rough.

BTW: the air bags I installed a few years ago are working great but they are only for leveling the vehicle with various loads not for ride quality.
 

coachbarnes

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You mention you hate the way it "drives" and want a more modern "ride". These are somewhat separate issues, can you be more specific?

Paul has given you some good general feedback but we may be able to help more if we know more about the issues you are trying to address.

Modern lift kits from the Bronco vendors are much better than they were even 15 years ago so if you have old style sprigs and shocks, or rusted up spring bolts that don't move freely they can ride rough.

BTW: the air bags I installed a few years ago are working great but they are only for leveling the vehicle with various loads not for ride quality.

I found this thread looking to solve a sagging issue with a heavy load in the back of my Bronco. I've ordered the cradles from Daystar, but I'm clueless on how to determine which bags to order? I've got a 3 1/2" suspension lift currently. Any help? Thx -- Scott
 
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TonyPDX

TonyPDX

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I used the Firestone 2071 kit but I modified it.... I mounted it on the forward part of the spring because I did not want to loose suspension travel (Compression). The way I have it installed the bag sees only 50% of the suspension travel.

I tested these on the Rubicon last year and they worked well.

Hopefully you can see what I did in this pictures.
 

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Digger556

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Aug 8, 2013
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793
So, i have been running my 3.5" lift rear springs for 10 years or so and just lived with the fact it was a little high in the rear in the summer with the top off but sagged in the winter with the hard top on and a little gear in the back. But, now that I built a rear bumper with tire rack, high lift, shovel, Pulaski and jerry can mount it really sags. I just got back from dragging my bumper down the Rubicon..... I tow my boat once and a while with it also.

So, what are you guys doing that run both lightly loaded and heavily loaded?

I was thinking of mounting helper air bags in front of the axle on the springs or one air bag on the traction bar that is mounted to the top of the pumpkin.

I don't want to loose suspension travel.

ETA: I just realized how old this thread is.

Here's a couple of thoughts. For starters, your situation is something that plagues even the OE's. If you look at Jeeps JK and JLs or most light trucks, they sit tail-high when empty. The reason for this is people's desire for good ride outweighs their desire for load capacity, so the manufacture's use lighter springs to lower the ride rate and make them tall so when loaded the rear doesn't look saggy.

In your situation, you likely need a stiffer spring. Installing one doesn't mean your rig will ride like a brick, you just need to give it enough extra rate that the height difference between unloaded and fully loaded is minimized. It will never be zero and you don't want it to be.

I was in the same boat and jumped my spring rate by 25%. It helped a lot, and my passengers could not tell the difference in ride. I was able to balance my daily driving, when I have one person in the truck and little to no gear with times I have the whole family, fully loaded and towing the camper. Empty the rear sits slightly above level and loaded, slightly below level, but you can't tell at a glance.

Another thing you can do to help is get some weight moved forward. Every lb of weight added forward of the front axle removes weight from the rear axle. If your front is too light, adding weight to the rear will be more dramatic because the rear will squat AND the front will lift. Another trick is just keep some weight in back. Leaving a Hi-lift or tools in the back helps maintain the balance with the hard top off. Shift the weight as far back as possible when you're light and forward when you're heavy.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
Hello I recently purchased an early for bronco and I absolutely hate the way it drives. Improvements are underway to the steering etc but I want a more modern ride. It’s an automatic 302 with a 3” lift, no body lift. It’s for road use only and will never off road and never tow anything. Would an airbag system improve the ride and if so is there a kit to suit or something that can be modified?

Thanks.

Paul dropped a lot of really good advise. It would be difficult to make these trucks compete with a new vehicle for ride quality simply because they lack the base architecture to do so. Modern vehicles are a wonder of modal analysis, ride validation, mass dampers. etc etc. Things that just didn't exist when a Bronco was produced. (Look at the newest Ram trucks, they use active mass damping to cancel engine vibrations in the frame. Think of it as noise cancelling headphones for a truck chassis)


The two big hitters for ride quality are:
1) Make sure everything is new, tight and pointed in the right direction. Steering and suspension geometry are important and you want to use more modern alignment settings.
2) Add as much compliance between the axles and body as possible. That means no rod ends/heim joints, no urethane. You want bushings wherever possible, rubber is a must. Use rigid joints only when absolutely necessary.

Areas where people make mistakes are using big clunky mud tires on a street rig. They just don't ride well. Most aftermarket "off-road" tires do not see the level of engineering required for good ride. This often manifests as dynamic vibrations. A good tire, even a big one, will balance out with a simple static balance.

Shocks and springs are very important. Many "off road" shocks are damped too stiff for a variety of reasons I won't get in to. I've had much better luck with Bilsteins. Look for ones specifically marketed to Broncos. Generic shocks don't have vehicle-specific tunes.
 
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TonyPDX

TonyPDX

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Another thing you can do to help is get some weight moved forward. Every lb of weight added forward of the front axle removes weight from the rear axle. If your front is too light, adding weight to the rear will be more dramatic because the rear will squat AND the front will lift. Another trick is just keep some weight in back. Leaving a Hi-lift or tools in the back helps maintain the balance with the hard top off. Shift the weight as far back as possible when you're light and forward when you're heavy.

Digger, great comments except I don't agree with ever adding weight ahead of the front axle to reduce rear axle weight. Yes, you are right it will unload the rear axle and add double the weight to the front axle. However, since Broncos are already nose heavy the handling really suffers on low friction surfaces. I moved my battery from the stock location, in front of the front axle to down on the frame in front of the rear axle just for this reason. As a general rule you should always try to keep the weight between the axles, as low as possible.

Regards, Tony
 

coachbarnes

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I used the Firestone 2071 kit but I modified it.... I mounted it on the forward part of the spring because I did not want to loose suspension travel (Compression). The way I have it installed the bag sees only 50% of the suspension travel.



I tested these on the Rubicon last year and they worked well.



Hopefully you can see what I did in this pictures.



That’s awesome - thx! What size lift are you running?


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