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"Builder" Public Service Announcement

Ratch

Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
694
I can answer this from a professional mechanics perspective.

A flat rate repair is hard to do on a restoration quality build. These type shops are striving for quality, and do a lot of detail work. When every reused part has to be inspected, cleaned, RECLEANED, refinished, reinspected, rechecked for fit, et cetera, ad nauseam then you have to expect a certain amount of added labor.

Any mechanic on flat rate is trying to beat the time to make more money and doesn't care about details, just making sure its fixed and doesn't come back in. Is that something you want for your Bronco?
Are you not providing any sort of initial estimate for these builds?

All projects are T and M?

Maybe I'm not understanding how you as a builder are that much different than any mechanic that has published hourly rates and charges customers based on estimates/book time or hours and material cost.

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englewoodcowboy

englewoodcowboy

Lick Creek Restorations
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
4,200
Are you not providing any sort of initial estimate for these builds?

All projects are T and M?

Maybe I'm not understanding how you as a builder are that much different than any mechanic that has published hourly rates and charges customers based on estimates/book time or hours and material cost.

This is completely different than a regular mechanic with what we are doing. We are not just replacing a water pump etc. We are restoring things, bringing them to like new or better condition meaning parts need to be cleaned, painted, inspected and refurbished or replaced, then installed without scratching other things. We do give a rough estimate range, letting them know approximately what to expect but as stated earlier, when we remove all coatings and expose what truly lies beneath, without magic glasses you can never know so we do build strictly as Time and Material. This is the only way to be 100% fair to the customer as well as the shop. There is no shop time estimates for a restoration, even on new vehicles as that stuff simply does not exist due to the vast amount of variables you can run into.

Think of it like this, a newer car, 5 years old will come apart typically much easier than a vehicle that is 40 years old. A brand new showroom car will come apart quite a bit faster than the 5 year old would. Now take 2 5 year old cars, one from SoCal and the Other from Upstate NY and again you will have a much easier time with the car from the dry climate vs the one from he wet salty environment. These are issues we face daily with these types of projects.
 
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Fireball05

Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
1,822
If I were a potential customer I would expect you to provide a rough estimate and then adjust based off of actual time spent. Your original post made it sound like that was not the case. I myself and I'm sure many of your customers understand that there are no book times for classic vehicle restoration but at the same time if you're hiring a professional and experienced shop you would expect them to have a good idea of the typical time involved for various projects.

It sounds like that is what you do and seems to be the fairest way to all involved. That's just not how one of your earlier posts came across.
 
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englewoodcowboy

englewoodcowboy

Lick Creek Restorations
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
4,200
If I were a potential customer I would expect you to provide a rough estimate and then adjust based off of actual time spent. Your original post made it sound like that was not the case. I myself and I'm sure many of your customers understand that there are no book times for classic vehicle restoration but at the same time if you're hiring a professional and experienced shop you would expect them to have a good idea of the typical time involved for various projects.

It sounds like that is what you do and seems to be the fairest way to all involved. That's just not how one of your earlier posts came across.

No worries, that is the point of this for me, to answer questions and clarify things. If an earlier statement came off that way, it was sort of intended to be that way so there is no mistake. Ive had customers ask for estimates or approximations and then later on they want you to stick to that which in our contract we clearly state our intentions. We stay in constant communication with them when an issue us discovered and it requires their blessing to proceed which at that time we give an estimated additional car over the original budget to proceed. We never treat these like an open check book but I do make it very clear that it takes what it takes to do the job for that particular vehicle. I have had customers ask us to cut corners and I simply will not do that. I also make that abundantly clear up front in regard to proper repairs or mechanically speaking. Should someone want to maintain the exterior patina we will gladly accommodate saving them the costly paint job etc. but when it comes down to things we could be liable over as far as safety is concerned, I will not tread anywhere near that grey line, our reputation is simply worth more than that and a lot of shops operate in that same manner. If someone is happy with their motor in its present state we gladly re-seal it and paint it up and use it, but they also understand there is no warranty on the motor since we did not build one for their project etc. In other words there are ways to reduce some of the costs. In fact something that we have been doing that is starting to become popular is a mechanical restoration of the vehicle... We leave the cosmetic parts as they are but we replace and rebuild everything mechanically and electrically. It saves a Chung but still is not cheap however it does provide a customer with the opportunity to have the lift, tires, gearing, transmission, engine and steering of their choice with a warranty and done right. Most that have done this option are saving later for the tub to get cosmetically restored etc. We have one back now that is on the second phase of the restoration right now and going into paint at this moment.
 

Tugross302

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
785
As a recent customer of a professional build I can understand how builders cannot give estimates. I was pretty sure mine did not need any metal panels replaced but there was no way to know for sure til media blasting. Turned out I needed a patch in the drivers floor replaced because the previous owner booger welded it and I had a couple other small places that needed fixed. But there would be no way for a builder looking at a painted truck would know that. With labor prices per hour what they are it doesn’t take long to add up. Like I’ve said before I envy you guys that have the knowledge and skills and time to do it all yourself and I’m sure there is a level of satisfaction that can not be measured. But for me the only way I could have a truck that was exactly what I wanted and at a higher quality than I could ever do I had to go to the pro and spend the money. The way I look at it is I could have got a nice new car but it would not have been my dream car. And the value of that new car would be dropping every day. Also. I changed my mind on things along the way and there would be no way a builder could plan for that. So if one gives you an estimate they are either going to hit you way high to make sure they cover their costs or they are gonna lowball you to hook you in then screw you later.
 

chuckyb

Contributor
Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
941
Be aware of a restoration estimate to restore your bronco for $50k or less. Something is being seriously overlooked here and you need to know what it is. Again if you intend to only drive it very short distances etc. it may be suitable to your needs so go into this knowing what to expect. After 3 years of building some really nice broncos I have come to several conclusions. parts are what they are. Every shop is going to do their due diligence to get a better rate but in the end they will have to mark them up to offset their overhead. I have yet to have a complete frame off restoration come through here that the basic parts spend, this is not including any of our custom touches, just the basics, new bearings, rebuilt motor, rebuilt transmission or new, all new seals, brakes, wiring, bushings, fasteners, clips etc. going through a complete nut and bolt restoration has yet to be under $45K my cost.

This may be a difficult price point to accept, but I’m a believer. The sum total of all my parts and labor receipts will be in this range when it is all said and done. This includes all required parts being purchased directly by me, using some of the same subs that Tom and Nick use, and doing whatever I can myself. It adds up in a hurry.
 
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