Camber advise

Godwick · Nov 15, 2017

So... long story short, with my old tires (32" Mts) my camber was off so badly (+) that it wore the outer tread of the tires very prematurely. I recently got 32" ATs and in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening, took it to an alignment shop.

The shop adjusted toe, and took readings on the bronco (which I can't find at the moment), but didn't touch the camber b/c they needed bushings to do so.

Not wanting to fork over the $500 to have them redo it all again and install the bushings, I bought myself a camber level and the bushings and went at it today.

Here's the thing:
To measure camber, I took the front wheels off, jacked up the front end, made sure (with tape measure) that both sides of the front end are level, and then used the camber level on the outer rotor.

I gave the passenger rotor +1 degree positive camber, then buttoned it up and lowered the truck.

Thing is, if I measure from the hub itself, I get a NEGATIVE camber reading. If I measure from the top of the tire, I get a very positive reading. So... what gives? Could the wheel be bent? Is that typical? How do I compensate for the top of the wheel if the top of the rotor reads +1 degree?

Any tips appreciated!

DirtDonk · Nov 15, 2017

Once it's back on the ground the weight of the truck can have a slight effect as well. But even more so if the wheel bearings are loose.
Have you ever had the hubs off and re-packed and readjusted the bearings by any chance? They're often done wrong, so might be worth checking.

Also the hub end is not necessarily required to be parallel to the rotor. Yes, it "should be" parallel, but with quality control these days, it's hard to say. Also the lockout knob itself could be adding to the inconsistency.
And frankly, if you're using the tire at all, you get plenty of inconsistency there for sure. Tires are rarely perfect donuts.
Oh, and yes, wheels can certainly be out of true. Any time.
New ones not so much, but once they've been on a truck for any time there are all sorts of things that can put them out of whack slightly.

Other than that I'm not sure other than to have the alignment guy check your work.

Good luck.

Paul

DirtDonk · Nov 15, 2017

I asked about the bearings, but if your shims were the type that go behind the spindle, then I guess that answers my question.
Or were you using the ball-joint eccentric sleeves as your adjustment?

Paul

Godwick · Nov 15, 2017

I️ was using the ball joint eccentrics. I have recently replaced top and bottom ball joints and didn’t use a torque wrench after repacking hubs but feel I️ did a fair job of it.
I️ guess I’m just not sure where to measure and what to expect.

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pcf_mark · Nov 16, 2017

If you are not measuring and adjusting the suspension with the weight on it you are not going to be very accurate. All of the bits and pieces bend and it adds up in your alignment.

The easiest way (in my opinion) to measure the camber is with a digital level you can buy at Sears or Home Depot. They are magnetic too. Position it on the wheel surface so it is even (not sitting on a blob of weld or dirt) and take a direct reading with the wheels straight ahead. Repeat on both sides. If you have the jack up the truck to adjust something (like take the wheel off!) roll it back and forth or even better start it up and drive it back and forth to settle the suspension.

To go next level cool when your level is stuck on the wheel move the steering to full lock one side, record the angle. Move to full lock the other side, measure the angle. The angle in the middle of the two readings is your caster.

This is important because as you move the camber you will impact the caster.

blubuckaroo · Nov 16, 2017

I'm not a big fan of the ball joint eccentrics.
Sure they can work, but most of the time it's at the expense of improperly loaded ball joints.
I'd rather use the shims or turn the car over to a real chassis shop. They will probably opt to bend the axle tube. It' may sound scary, but it's a reliable alignment procedure.

Godwick · Nov 16, 2017

I would do that, but to be honest, the alignment shops here in Santa Barbara have all but two refused to work on it and neither of them are willing to bend the tube nor have they instilled much confidence. Going to see how these pan out and wear the tires.
Thank you for the tips though!

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blubuckaroo · Nov 17, 2017

Godwick said:
I would do that, but to be honest, the alignment shops here in Santa Barbara have all but two refused to work on it and neither of them are willing to bend the tube nor have they instilled much confidence. Going to see how these pan out and wear the tires.
Thank you for the tips though!

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Try taking it to a wheel & frame shop. Places that work on truck chassis are the best for old straight axle 4X4s.

broncodriver99 · Nov 17, 2017

I don't like the ball joint eccentrics either. I always use spindle shims. Once you figure out how much correction you need you buy those shims and you are done. If you have to pull everything apart for some reason you just put them back in and everything is where it should be, no adjustments necessary.

X2 on the digital level as well. That's what I use. I measure off of the rotor surface in several spots and turn it. It should be fairly true.

Apogee · Nov 17, 2017

For camber, I would just use the spindle shims and be done with it. At least that's a solution I can do in my driveway versus taking it to a shop and incurring hundreds of dollars of expense for the same result.

blubuckaroo · Nov 17, 2017

broncodriver99 said:
I don't like the ball joint eccentrics either. I always use spindle shims. Once you figure out how much correction you need you buy those shims and you are done. If you have to pull everything apart for some reason you just put them back in and everything is where it should be, no adjustments necessary.

X2 on the digital level as well. That's what I use. I measure off of the rotor surface in several spots and turn it. It should be fairly true.

Yes, you should really research how those ball joint eccentrics actually work before investing in them.
Sure, they're a quick fix, but how can your ball joints still be properly adjusted and adjust the camber at the same time.
Like I've said... Research it first!

DirtDonk · Nov 17, 2017

Just to jump in as devil's advocate here. I have not had a single set of standard sleeves fit even remotely as expected in the last few years either. So I see no problem with an eccentric that might, or might not, cause the torque reading to bet skewed, when I have just as much chance of that happening with the regular ones.
I also don't believe that the range of adjustment is so narrow as to exclude them out of hand anyway.

But the fact that none of the normal, non-eccentric ones have fit recently is disturbing and a pain too. The last two literally could be threaded down to the point that they literally could be threaded all the way out the bottom of the upper ear before reaching even remotely the specified torque.

On the flip side of that I've never had a set of eccentrics fail to adjust properly. Go figure.
Admittedly I've only used very few of those, and it's been awhile since I did them. So maybe it's more of a new-vs-old thing.
But the fact remains that they reached the goal, remained within the threaded tower, and had plenty of leeway within that torque reading to allow us to utilize the full range of offset adjustment needed to help the alignment.

The good news about the bad ones was that even the bad standard sleeves/collars, while not able to torque to spec, were still close enough to result in a final knuckle-pull test within the acceptable range.
Which is why I say, from my own experiences at least, there is definite leeway within the adjustments. If you can't reach the proper torque then, if it's close give it a try.

So I will personally continue to use eccentrics where they're needed.
I too prefer the tapered shims, but I've used the eccentrics to get a tiny bit of extra caster as well that helped to tune the right-left cross-caster.

I have not tried to figure out yet just what is going on. Whether the new (probably made in China) sleeves are defective, or if the older axles I was working on somehow had worn out threads or something else wrong with the steering yokes, but I never came across that problem in years past.

Anybody else run into this with the stock collars?

Paul

broncodriver99 · Nov 18, 2017

DirtDonk said:
Just to jump in as devil's advocate here. I have not had a single set of standard sleeves fit even remotely as expected in the last few years either. So I see no problem with an eccentric that might, or might not, cause the torque reading to bet skewed, when I have just as much chance of that happening with the regular ones.
I also don't believe that the range of adjustment is so narrow as to exclude them out of hand anyway.

But the fact that none of the normal, non-eccentric ones have fit recently is disturbing and a pain too. The last two literally could be threaded down to the point that they literally could be threaded all the way out the bottom of the upper ear before reaching even remotely the specified torque.

On the flip side of that I've never had a set of eccentrics fail to adjust properly. Go figure.
Admittedly I've only used very few of those, and it's been awhile since I did them. So maybe it's more of a new-vs-old thing.
But the fact remains that they reached the goal, remained within the threaded tower, and had plenty of leeway within that torque reading to allow us to utilize the full range of offset adjustment needed to help the alignment.

The good news about the bad ones was that even the bad standard sleeves/collars, while not able to torque to spec, were still close enough to result in a final knuckle-pull test within the acceptable range.
Which is why I say, from my own experiences at least, there is definite leeway within the adjustments. If you can't reach the proper torque then, if it's close give it a try.

So I will personally continue to use eccentrics where they're needed.
I too prefer the tapered shims, but I've used the eccentrics to get a tiny bit of extra caster as well that helped to tune the right-left cross-caster.

I have not tried to figure out yet just what is going on. Whether the new (probably made in China) sleeves are defective, or if the older axles I was working on somehow had worn out threads or something else wrong with the steering yokes, but I never came across that problem in years past.

Anybody else run into this with the stock collars?

Paul

Meh, the eccentrics are a garbage solution. The proper fitment or improper fitment of aftermarket threaded sleeves is not and has nothing to do with weather or not an entirely different product is or should be acceptable. Shims dial camber right in without effecting caster or toe or requiring adjustment to the steering linkage. The eccentrics are all about finding a happy medium between the camber you want and making everything else work with the caster you end up with. I have wasted a few hours trying to make the eccentrics work and left them sitting on the shelf for a while after I gave up on them and finally just sent them to the recycle bin where they belong.

The issues with the aftermarket ball joints is a completely different subject and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I am currently running the Raybestos problem solvers which seem to be the joints that are most talked about as far as the sleeve protruding below the threaded section of the axle C and other than it not looking like the Spicer joints it is not problematic. The sleeve still preloads the ball joint properly and everything works as it should. I have used the Raybestos joints on the last 2 Broncos I have had and several other front axles that I have rebuilt for other Bronco owners and had no problems with them. I do recommend the Spicer Joints but like that the Raybestos joints are greaseable.

If one want's picture perfect sleeve protrusion run the Spicer ball joints. If one wants to maintain proper ball joint alignment and preload run spindle shims. If one wants to dick around trying to find a happy medium and making a camber adjustment become an all weekend chase everything around the front end adjustment marathon by all means try using the eccentrics. Or.. just measure for and buy the correct set of shims to get the camber where you want it and leave the eccentrics for someone else.

RODRIG3911 · Nov 18, 2017

X5 on spindle shims. I did it it myself and had an alignment shop adjust toe to 1/8" in after ($40) and it turned out great!! Plus with the ball joint eccentrics you can't torque them down correctly and that just isn't right in my opinion

RODRIG3911 · Nov 18, 2017

Also, Randy from driven 4X4 (Thanks Randy!!!!) taught me that you could clock the shims around to the correct amount!! *the fat part doesn't have to be all the way on the top or bottom bro... However, when you clock the shims your toe is effected and that is why you must adjust toe to 1/8" in after.

toddz69 · Nov 18, 2017

I installed the eccentrics last last year and ended up having to order 1-2 extras so I could get ones that were cut such that I could get the proper torque on them.

If I had to do them over again, I would just go with the shims. The one concern I had about the shims was that since the spindle nuts were now resting on a less-than-flat surface if you would have enough seating contact between the nut and spindle (rather than just a point contact or something less than optimum). I was probably just anal-retentive engineer thinking it though.

Todd Z.

Apogee · Nov 18, 2017

toddz69 said:
I installed the eccentrics last last year and ended up having to order 1-2 extras so I could get ones that were cut such that I could get the proper torque on them.

If I had to do them over again, I would just go with the shims. The one concern I had about the shims was that since the spindle nuts were now resting on a less-than-flat surface if you would have enough seating contact between the nut and spindle (rather than just a point contact or something less than optimum). I was probably just anal-retentive engineer thinking it though.

Todd Z.

My F150 has a camber shim on one side, and I was wondering the same thing with respect to point loading the nuts and putting the studs in bending. Coming off, they actually seemed to seat just fine, but I'm digging into it now and looking at my options for spherical washers under the nuts, I'm just not sure I have the stud length to accommodate them.

Godwick · Nov 18, 2017

Well, I got one bushing sleeve in, but the other side is stuck fierce. I rounded it out with the spanner socket and even tried the hammer and screwdriver approach. Looks like I might default to the spindle shims. Do I have to take off the hub assembly to install them?

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toddz69 · Nov 18, 2017

Godwick said:
Well, I got one bushing sleeve in, but the other side is stuck fierce. I rounded it out with the spanner socket and even tried the hammer and screwdriver approach. Looks like I might default to the spindle shims. Do I have to take off the hub assembly to install them?

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Yes. They fit between the spindle and the knuckle.

Todd Z.

toddz69 · Nov 18, 2017

blubuckaroo said:
Paul, with all this said, how did you get your ball joint torque set properly after getting the eccentric adjusted right?
Please go into detail. This is really important to anyone struggling with camber problems.

I'm not Paul, but I'll tell you how I did it. I noted in my earlier reply that it took several different eccentrics to get mine right (I think I tried 2 on one side and lucked out with 1 on the other side).

I marked my eccentric with a sharpie on top where I could watch to see when it was located in the proper position in the bore. I then torqued the eccentric to the proper amount and checked to see if it was close to where it needed to be in the bore. The first one wasn't. So I got a second one, marked it, and tried it. I 'lucked out' and it was very, very close to where it needed to be when I achieved the proper torque. I don't recall if it was dead-on or I needed something minor like 1/16 of a turn to get it right. The eccentrics can vary because the offset bore is at a different spot in each relative to the start of the external threads.

Todd Z.

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