Stock leaf springs from Wild Horses - Pinion angle a mess

[Flintster]

Alright, 1st time posting so I will give some background information. I picked up a 71'ish bronco about 2 years ago and I am starting to rebuild it going from tire to tire.

Here is what I have done so far, I swapped out the drum brakes on the front end Dana 30 to disk and replaced the front shocks, springs and all of the bushings in the front. I am now working on the rear end.

I am trying to restore it to stock height so I picked up stock shocks and leaf springs from Wild Horses (10 pack - no lift). After correctly installing the leaf springs I realize that my pinion angle is way off now and it looks like I will need shims for a 6 inch lift to bring it back to where it is supposed to be. All of the leaf springs and shackle bolts are completely loose for the time being but the truck is sitting over 9 inches from the top of the axel to the bottom of the frame in the back.

I understand it will settle some after driving it but 3 inches??? Wild Horses said there is no way I would need to shim it but I can't image the angle is going to change.

Has anyone had a similar problem wen installing stock leaf springs from Wild Horses?

I will attempt to add pictures as soon as I can.

PLEASE HELP.

Thanks
Flint

 

[broncodriver99]

Definitely sounds like something is off. Pictures would definitely help. Did you have the weight of the Bronco on the springs when you tightened the bolts?

 

[sykanr0ng]

Long thread about this here:

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278898

 

[bronconut73]

Welcome Flinster.

This is the best site on the net,
we can get you through this
but the boys will need some photos.

WH has an outstanding rep here named Dirtdonk. You could pm him or send him photos directly.
Donk is prolly the nicest guy here. You will be in good hands.
But until he chimes in post some photos and maybe we can help you.

 

[DirtDonk]

Hey Flintster, sorry you're having an issue with our springs. As said though, some pics will help.
The full weight of the vehicle is already back on the frame and suspension?
You're familiar with the proper "Early Bronco" pinion angle? Meaning that with the double-cardan front joint it's not the same as you would put on a standard driveshaft.

It's possible for our springs to sit high of course, and quite common on the lifted ones. But I don't hear that complaint on stock height springs, which could be due to us not as many as the lifted ones, or the installers just don't bother to call.

And shims are often required on any lift 2.5" or more nowadays. So not just the realm of six inch lifts anymore. We haven't figured out yet whether it's due to thicker spring packs (a myth I started, but debunked by cooler heads here) or just the simple fact that more people are aware of the issue and bother to check the angle than before. Or something else entirely...
Maybe it has something to do with the thicker spring packs not compressing and flattening as much as the old five and six-leaf packs when the u-bolts are torqued. But if so we'd certainly see a lot more in need of shims.

I never like to say "no way" when I'm on the phone, so sorry they used that phrase. I've learned the hard way that there is no such thing as "never" with Early Broncos. And your 3" lift with stock just proves that out in this case too.
But it's definitely not a common thing as far as they're concerned I'm sure. Still should not say never though.

Anyway, let us know what the exact amount of your misalignment is. We have 6° steel shims (#1188) to correct an apporximately 8-10 degree down angle on the rear pinion. This is the exact amount to give most Bronco applications the correct rear pinion angle for a stock double-cardan shaft.

Even used them on a buddy's '76 with original springs recently, because his factory warrantied replacement axle housing had the spring perches welded on incorrectly and he's had a u-joint problem since the truck was about a month old.
Obviously not the issue with yours, since you now have our springs in place. But I mention it to showcase the differences we can run across.

You should not have to wait long for the springs to settle or something is wrong in my opinion. Many things you can do, but again you should not have to with stock height springs.
Let's get some more details and we'll figure out the best way to take care of it.

Thanks. And again, sorry for the hassle.

Paul

 

[Godwick]

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[savage]

Why does this seem to be more and more a problem with lift kits and stock height kits. I know when I bought a lift kit for my 77 ford stepside , I bought a 4inch skyjacker, When it was installed, it measured to be a 5 inch, so only a inch higher. I know spring settle, at 2 to 3 inches over, that seems a lot.

 

[DirtDonk]

Hah! Thanks bronconut. Looks like I was right behind and just a little slow on the response.
Thanks for the promotion. But if we can't figure something out, my name is really "Johnny" instead and you never heard of me...;D

Paul, uh, I mean Johnny...%)

 

[DirtDonk]

That is a lot savage. More in line with not having the body back on the frame yet actually. But probably not completely unheard of either.
Or at that height, even a mis-numbered spring. Though as far as I know that has not happened to us. Yet...
We just need more info before we can narrow it down.

Paul

 

[savage]

Hey Paul, I agree we need more information or some pictures. It just seems you here more on the rear leaves being higher, than you do on front coils.

 

[DirtDonk]

Definitely.
A few things dynamically different between the two, and we definitely see more high-riding talk about leaves, and more sagging over time. Not just with ours, but with any.
While it's of course possible for a coil to sag too, and many do over the years, it's been my experience with cars and trucks that you get most of the change over the years with the leaf springs.
That includes sagging with age and use, but also newly manufactured ones.

Of course, most of the rigs we talk about would have leaf springs in the rear and maybe coils in the front, so the sagging part might be due to more weight load in the case of a pickup truck or well-utilized utility vehicle.
But that doesn't explain the issue when the bed remains empty most of the time and all the extra weight of a vehicle is often over the front.

I use the excuse often about leaf springs being more art than science, and an inexact science at that. Even today, though after a couple of hundred years of development you'd think they'd have it down to an exact science by now. Perhaps it's not the methods then, but the changing metallurgy of imported vs domestic metals and such like that.
Even when springs are made in the USA, you can't always know that the metal they used came from here or was imported (back) from somewhere else.
Maybe it's as simple as that.

Or not... Maybe they're just screwing up. But I prefer to at least for now continue to think that due to the design of using more, but much thinner individual leaves to achieve more of the goals we set, requires more height to allow for more settling, to get where they need to be for normal use. All without them having too short of a lifespan.

But that's just hearsay on my part. Just things I've thought up while hanging out here. Never read a spring book, like I never read a hydraulics book for another thread I was just weighing in on.
I do know we want Bronco owners to get what they pay for, get the better ride and good load carrying capacity, all in a spring that doesn't die after two years of hard use.
Hopefully we can keep those goals without running customers through too big of an obstacle course while settling springs do their thing.

Paul

 

[Pa PITT]

Don't the springs go on one way. One end is front other is for the rear.
ONE WAY IT'LL TILT YOU PINION UP & Other way it'll tilt it down.

 

[DirtDonk]

They are directional, where the double-wrap always goes to the front. But they can be reversed and should not effect the pinion angle.

Paul

 

[Skiddy]

Don't the springs go on one way. One end is front other is for the rear.
ONE WAY IT'LL TILT YOU PINION UP & Other way it'll tilt it down.

I don't know if it does or not.
just getting ready to put new springs on mine, the old ones I took off, the double wrap was at the back. my pinion was bad. but I think it was more that the spring perches were welded on at 29*

 

[DirtDonk]

Might be the perches, but the fact remains that at least 85% of our customers with 3.5" lifts or more need the shims. The instance of 2.5" lifts needing them has gone way up from maybe 20% a few years ago, to about 75% now.
That could be inconsistencies in the vehicles, but my feeling is more likely that more people are aware of the issue and look for it now.

There's no way for us to track how many of those are because of the lift only, or from the differences in original setup of the EB. Or for that matter, how many out there have not called us even though they have a bad pinion angle!

Glad you're getting yours back on the right way. Might as well plan for the shims now in case you need them. Are the springs still installed where you can measure things? Or are they already removed?

Paul

 

[Skiddy]

Might be the perches, but the fact remains that at least 85% of our customers with 3.5" lifts or more need the shims. The instance of 2.5" lifts needing them has gone way up from maybe 20% a few years ago, to about 75% now.
That could be inconsistencies in the vehicles, but my feeling is more likely that more people are aware of the issue and look for it now.

There's no way for us to track how many of those are because of the lift only, or from the differences in original setup of the EB. Or for that matter, how many out there have not called us even though they have a bad pinion angle!

Glad you're getting yours back on the right way. Might as well plan for the shims now in case you need them. Are the springs still installed where you can measure things? Or are they already removed?

Paul

nah the po welded on the old perches. I welded on new ones today. now if I can only get the shackle bushings in%)
sorry about the hijack

 

[Flintster]

OK. First off, I was really pleased to see responses so quickly. I appreciate the link to the other thread from a few months back and hope some of the users from that thread will jump on this one to give me some of their updates.

I apologize for not having pictures yet and knew you guys would be asking so I promise to add pictures tomorrow.


Some additional information and answers to some of your questions:
- None of the bolts have been tightened (except the u-bolts)
- Hard top is on, bench seat is in (and there is about 150 lbs with of stuff in the back)
- Double eye's are in front so I am quite certain I installed them correctly.
- Also, I have 10 leafs so I know WH didn't send me the wrong ones


DirtDonk - I hope my first post didn't come off as disappointed at Wild Horses, I am new to this world and already know they are a great company to work with. I will be buying many parts from you guys in the future, regardless of what we figure out about my leaf springs.

The biggest problem for me is I won't have my Bronco on the road until summer at the earliest with the amount of work needed to get done. So I really won't know how much this will settle out on its own but based on what I am reading I will likely need to remove a couple of leafs since I am dead set on dropping this to stock height.

 

[bknbronco]

my 5.5" leafs sagged a inch just after maybe 10K miles. id imagine youll see that in your situation.

Hey we love doing things twice when they sell us shit parts....keeps us connected. I just put in exhaust manifold gaskets a vendor sold me only to find out that they had no idea the stock exhaust ports were square and they stocked the wrong gasket.

 

[mpboxer]

I started the thread you guys are talking about earlier. My passenger rear is at 8.5” and my driver rear is at 8” now. I’ve been driving it frequently and took it out on some rutty dirt roads to flex it a little. I also had 400 lbs of concrete bags back there for 6 weeks while waiting for my exhaust to come. This is with the two smaller leaves removed and 6* shims added. My pinion angle was the same as yours Flintster.

 

[DirtDonk]

...now if I can only get the shackle bushings in%)

I hate those things! I still would like to see some of the manufacturers actually size the new bushings to fit the shackles WITH the old steel sleeve left in place.
When these rigs were still almost new, someone started making bushings with the assumption that you would press out the old vulcanized rubber bushing module, outer metal sleeve and all. Unfortunately, more often than not nowadays that same outer sleeve has practically welded itself to the shackle with rust.
Makes the whole job hard enough that a pretty high percentage of users actually toss the old shackle and buy new ones!
I guess that's good for our shackle sales, but I'd rather see them sold because someone wants them, or needs stronger ones. Not because a simple poly bushing install goes haywire.

Anyway, probably nobody has asked them to do it yet.

Paul